An Exclusive Interview with Sgt. Paul Dostie
Concerning the Barker Ranch Grave Search
Interview Conducted January 24, 2008
How long have you been investigating the possible
murders at Barker Ranch?
I have read parts of Manson books relating to the Barker Ranch for several
years. The one that really inspired me was the book "Desert
Shadows" by Bob Murphy. Bob was the only one devote his work to the
Manson Family's activities in the Death Valley/Owens Valley area.
I really started talking to people on the phone and by e-mail in the fall of
2006. Ed Sanders was very helpful in pointing me
in the right direction.
How did you get interested?
It all started in the fall of 1998 when I was at our local fair and an Inyo
County Sheriff's Deputy told me about a dig for bodies at the Barker Ranch that
summer. They had been contacted by an author named Bill Nelson. Nelson told them
that he was talking to a former Manson Family member who claimed that there were
murder victims buried behind the Barker Ranch. They went out to the Barker Ranch
with Nelson and his witness. They dug and found nothing. The person who claimed
that he was a former family member was Larry Melton (aka: White Rabbit). I
believe that Nelson was duped by Melton and Melton was a fraud who had some
brief contact with the family after the arrests.
Do you feel there is a high chance there are victims?
I think that there is a good chance that there are human remains in the areas
where the dogs initially alerted in February 2007. Whether they are Manson
Family victims or not, remains to be seen. Keep in mind that once the dogs are
trained to find old grave scent, they will alert on sites that are several
hundred years old. The Park Service told me that there were Native Americans
living that area up to 500 years ago. I believe, based on what some very
experienced dogs handlers who do this type of work as a specialty have told me,
that this is within the dog's range of detection.
The site that I feel the best about, the "Buster 1" site, is the one that Buster
first found. The reasons are as follows:
1. There was a lot of scent there and Buster got into the scent cone from
several yards away.
2. Buster had a very strong alert at the location. He was very sure. There
are hundreds of other bushes of the same species (sage) in the area and this was
the only one that he was interested in.
3. The other dogs alerted at the same site.
4. I took a piece of the bush and put it in a plastic bag. On my way home, about
100 miles from the Barker Ranch, I hid a small piece of the bush sample in
another bush. Buster had no problem locating and alerting on the small piece of
sample bush in another bush, surrounded by a lot of the same bushes.
I also sent a soil sample and bush sample to a friend of mine in West Virginia
who trains cadaver dogs. None of the cadaver dogs alerted on the soil sample.
However, they did locate and alert on the bush sample. We know that bushes will
uptake human remains as fertilizer, and exude cadaver scent through its leaves.
One could deduce the following: The cadaver dogs did not alert on the soil
sample because it is old grave scent and they are not trained on it. They
alerted on the bush because it is exuding cadaver scent and this could indicate
a more recent burial rather than someone that's been down there for 500 years.
This is of course pure speculation on my part. I am unaware of any forensic
testing in this area.
5. The location where Buster alerted is an area where a witness told me that
Charlie and Tex took a girl that was not fitting in and came back later without
her. She was never seen again. The witness told me that they were told this by a
family member that was at the Barker Ranch at the time.
None of this is conclusive. However, I think that it is probable cause for more
investigation.
Do you have information or rumors beyond what has been
previously reported?
I spoke to a source who interviewed Manson around year 2000. Manson had a
handler who is another inmate, who is a "jailhouse lawyer." When the source
asked Manson about the Barker Ranch, the handler cut off the conversation saying
that Manson would not talk about any crimes that do not have a statute of
limitations, and could result in further indictments of people. In California
there are two crimes that do not have a statute of limitations. Murder and
embezzlement of public funds. I don't think that Charlie ever worked for the
government!
How many do you feel might be buried out there?
All I can say is that there are two sites all the dogs alerted on in February.
There are two additional sites that only Buster has alerted on. There is no way
to tell without digging if they are Native Americans, old prospectors, Manson
Family Victims, or if the dogs made a mistake.
Do you have feelings or information about who these
victims might include?
I think that there are two stories that fit the best. First is the girl that
Charlie and Tex took for a walk and came back without. The other is the boy who
was backpacking the length of Death Valley and stopped at the Barker Ranch for a
few nights and disappeared leaving all his gear behind. When a family member
asked Clem Grogan where the boy was, Clem is reported to have said, "He got
homesick".
Have you spoken to former Family members about this?
I have spoken to one and I have had others speak to five more on my behalf.
Have you worked with officers and prosecutors involved
in the 1969-70 investigations?
I have exchanged voice mails with Mr. Bugliosi and he was very supportive of our
effort.
Debra Tate and I speak frequently and she is a tremendous supporter of the
investigative efforts at the Barker Ranch. I have taken her to the Barker Ranch
and she has seen Buster work and identify all the sites.
I sat next to Bill Gleason at a serial killer conference last summer. Bill dug
up Shorty Shea. I gave a brief presentation on the use of forensic investigation
dogs. Bill said that if they would of had these dogs back in 1969, Steve Grogan
would still be in prison. Bill was still working homicide cases as a volunteer
investigator for National
Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
What is clear to me is that in 1969 everyone was focused on the Tate - LaBianca
murders. With a few exceptions, no one was really concerned about what happened
at the Barker Ranch or elsewhere in Inyo County.
District Attorney Frank Fowels and his assistant Buck Gibbons are the
exceptions. Bob Murphy states that Frank and Buck ordered repeated searches of
the Barker Ranch for murder victims. Surrounding canyons were also searched.
I worked with Frank and Buck in the early 1990's when I was assigned to an
interagency narcotics task force. (MINET). Buck was the DA and he had no problem
coming in on his day off to help me with a difficult search warrant. Frank was a
public defender who was an exceptional lawyer who didn't miss a thing. He gave
me a good education while cross examining me on the stand. He was a true
gentleman. I only wish that I could have spoken to them while they were alive
about the Barker Ranch.
The Barker Ranch is very remote and difficult to get to. They would not have
ordered those searches without good cause in my opinion.
How many trips have you made to Barker?
I have been to the Barker Ranch eight times. I have taken the Inyo County
Sheriff's Department there, my wife, Debra Tate and our local news media. Buster
and I have searched other areas around the ranch with no other alerts. I have
also collected soil sample at the sites for further analysis.
When did you first visit Barker and who was involved?
The first time I went to the Barker Ranch was on February 24, 2007 when all the
dogs went out there.
Tell us about Buster and his amazing colleagues.
Wow, I could write a book on this! Everyone knows that dogs have a greater sense
of smell than humans. That is only half of the story. A significant portion of
the dog's brain is devoted to analyzing the data that the nose collects. Think
of it as a hardware/software thing. The nose being the hardware and the brain
being the software. The most amazing thing is the dog's ability to instantly
discriminate between thousands of volatile chemical compounds (odors). The dogs
are proofed off of animal remains and usually do so without any additional
training. They only alert on human remains.
The next question usually is, what do we train on? Pieces of dead people?
For a cadaver dog, the most common training aid are human placentas. They are
legal to obtain in most states. They learn to find a stinky placenta from a long
ways off! I also train a lot on human bone. The surgeons at our hospital have
been very supportive and the patient signs a release form so I can get femur
heads from total hip replacements to train Buster with.
How many dogs were involved in the initial search?
There were five dogs in February.
Have you marked the potential grave sites?
None of the sites are marked. There are GPS coordinates for all the sites. It
would be impossible to go there today and find them without a dog that is
trained to look for that scent.
Is it true they can find graves 100 years old?
Some of the dogs that do this type of work have alerted on sites with human
remains that are 1,000 years old.
How many specialized dogs like this exist in the United
States?
We think that there are about a dozen dogs in the U.S. that are trained
specifically for Historic Grave detection.
Have you worked with scientists to determine how these
dogs accomplish their work?
I have used advanced forensic science in the past and all the scientists have
been very helpful and taken the time to educate me. Check out this link:
www.forensicmag.com/articles.asp?pid=151
I will be speaking on this topic at the Conference on Crimes Against Women in
Houston, Texas in February:
www.genesisshelter.org/event.details.php?id=27
I have had the privilege to speak with Dr. Brian Eckenrode at the FBI
Laboratory and Dr. Arpad Vass at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Here is a
scientific paper they wrote on this subject:
www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/pres/119106.pdf
Here are some articles that we can understand!
whyfiles.org/192forensic_anthro/3.html
www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v37_1_04/article_18.shtml
www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2003-01/new-science-murder-victim-search
Buster and I have done experimental work with a graduate student of Dr. Ken
Furton at the International Forensic Research Institute, K9 section. I have
given Dr. Furton soil samples from all the alert sites at the Barker Ranch for
analysis. Also included was a sample of the bush the dogs alert on and a
negative control sample. There are no results as of yet.
www.fiu.edu/~furtonk/
www.fiu.edu/~ifri/detector_dogs.htm
If you take soil samples to other locations, can the
dogs still detect it?
I sent a soil sample from the Buster 1 site to Necrosearch and their Human
Remains Detection Bloodhound alerted on the sample. I have sent them soil
samples from all the Barker Ranch sites as well as negative control samples from
areas near the sites. I also sent soil samples from two known grave sites, one
100 years old at Ballarat, and one 134 years old from an area west of Panamint
Valley, along with negative control samples from near those two sites. This will
give a more scientific result.
Debra Tate and I would like to see someone come up with the funding for
Necrosearch to come in and search the areas where the dogs alerted. They
specialize in locating clandestine grave sites and have much more experience
than I do in this area of forensics. The Barker Ranch was Buster's first search
for human remains outside of training. Any search by Necrosearch would have to
be done at the request of and under the supervision of the Inyo County Sheriff's
Department.
Check out www.necrosearch.org.
Have you consulted with experts in other fields such
as ground penetrating radar or FBI profilers?
I took a GRP expert to the Barker Ranch. At this time there is no funding for
this since we are all volunteers.
Could drivers licenses or wallets still be intact?
Clothing or DNA?
I have consulted with Dr. Lee Meadows Jantz at the "Body Farm" in Tennessee. She
feels that under desert conditions such as the Barker Ranch, bodies from 1969
would most likely be in a mummified condition. DNA could be obtained from femur
bones or teeth. Dr. Matt Thomas from DNA Print Genomics said they would do their
Ancestry DNA work for free on any Manson Family victims found at the Barker
Ranch.
whyfiles.org/192forensic_anthro/2.html
web.utk.edu/~anthrop/faculty/jantz_lm.html
www.dnaprint.com
Could there be new trials?
This is a very unique case in that all the players are known. I think that the
criminal grand jury process would be the best way to investigate any murders at
the Barker Ranch.
I believe that there are suspects both in and out of custody that could be
charged if evidence is found.
The 1970 trial saw some pretty unusual courtroom
antics. Do you think a new trial would be any different?
Everyone is pretty old now, but many are still pretty weird.
Is there the possibility of the death penalty?
The death penalty was in effect at the time of the crimes. It was later
overturned in California. It then came back. I am not a lawyer but my humble
legal opinion would be that its what was in effect at the time of the crime is
what would count.
Has the internet made this investigation different than
that in 1970?
Yes it has. My favorite cyber detective, Mark Turner, has been a tremendous help
to me in this investigation. He has opened doors that I would have never found.
Why do you think it's important after so many years?
Many believe that the suspects in custody (and some out of custody), are serial
killers. Murders at the Barker Ranch would go a long way to proving this. Some
on the killers are on one year parole reviews and they say they have been good.
If victims are found at the Barker Ranch that were killed well after the Tate-La
Bianca murders, it blows the "two nights of craziness" theory out of the water.
Also, if they are so reformed, why did they not say anything?
Positive results at the Barker Ranch could provide Debra Tate powerful arguments
at the Manson Family parole hearings that she attends.
Most importantly, as Debra Tate says, "I think that there are kids at the Barker
Ranch that need to go home."
Lastly, this is an important case in American history. The whole story should be
told for the sake of setting the historical record straight.
There is additional work to be done. It should not be done at the expense of
providing basic Law Enforcement services to the citizens of Inyo County. They
have very dedicated and professional Sheriff's Department that is undermanned
and under funded. I would hope that a funding source would come forward that
would provide funding and expertise to do further investigation at the Barker
Ranch without negatively impacting the citizens of Inyo County.
For the main story on the Barker Ranch search,
click here.
For photos of the February 24, 2007 search,
click here.
For guide Steve Groppe's thoughts, click here.
