Linda Kasabian Testimony
Manson-Atkins-Krenwinkel-Van Houten Trial Testimony
Linda Kasabian questioned by Vincent Bugliosi (July 28, 1970). Note many
objections have been deleted for clarity:
Q: Did you indicate yesterday that after the first time you met Mr. Manson
you saw him the following night; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were you this night when Manson saw you?
A: In a cave in back of the ranch.
Q: Did anything take place between you and Mr. Manson in the cave?
A: He made love to me and we had a slight conversation.
Q: What conversation did you have with Mr. Manson while you were making love,
or about that time?
A: I don’t recall the complete conversation, but he told me that I had a
father hang-up, and I said...
Q: This is after you had sexual intercourse with him?
A: No. I think it was before.
Q: Did this impress you when he said you had a father hang-up?
A: Very much so.
Q: Why?
A: Because nobody ever said that to me, and I did have a father hang-up. I
hated my stepfather.
(Missing testimony about a camouflaged campsite with dune buggy parts about
two miles from Spahn Ranch.)
Q: Was a walkie-talkie system set up at this campsite?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Do you know who ordered that the walkie-talkie system be set up?
A: Charlie did.
Q: Did he indicate why he wanted a walkie-talkie system?
A: Yes. We had been spotted. Maybe it was the fire department, or some trucks
were going back and forth, and we had been spotted. So, we had a walkie-talkie
system set up a little ways from the camp that we would make phone calls if they
would come by, you know, to let people at the camp know.
Q: What was the setup of the walkie-talkie system?
A: Well, there was a road leading up to the campsite, and right at the
beginning of this road a part of the walkie-talkie system was set up, and then
there was a wire going all the way down to the road, camouflaged, leading to
another part of the walkie-talkie system at the camp.
Q: Were there any guard shifts at the second camping site?
A: Yes.
Q: Who acted as guards?
A: All us girls in different shifts.
Q: What were you guarding?
A: Actually just like a watch-out tower, we would sit there with the
walkie-talkie system, watching out if a truck went by or if, you know, somebody
came walking through that would spot us.
Q: Did Charlie ask you girls to do anything while you were at the second
camping site?
A: First he instructed us to make little witchy things to hang in the trees
to show our way from the campsite to our road in the dark.
Q: What witchy things?
A: Things made from weeds, rocks, stones, branches, some kinds of wires, I
don’t know, all different little things.
Q: Why do you use the word "witchy?"
A: All the guys, Charlie called us witches.
Q: Okay, were there any male visitors who came to the ranch and visited the
Family?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Charlie ever tell you girls to do anything with these male visitors?
A: Yes, he told us to make love to them, and try to get them to join the
Family, and if they would not join the Family, not to give them our attention,
not to make love to them.
(Kanarek made a motion for a mistrial. Motion denied)
Q: Where did you get your food from?
A: We used to go on garbage runs.
Q: What do you mean by garbage runs, Linda?
A: We used to go in the back of supermarkets and restaurants, into the
garbage cans and take the throw-away food, take them home, clean them up and eat
them.
Q: Did Charlie ever say anything about what type of food you should eat?
A: Not really. He used to really dig zusus.
Q: What are zusus?
A: Candy and ice cream.
Q: Linda, do you know what a sexual orgy is?
A: Yes, I do.
(Kanarek objected and attorneys approached the bench)
OLDER: Let me tell you something, Mr. Kanarek, and I want you to get it
straight right now. I do not want you to interrupt. I don’t want you to
interrupt me; I don’t want you to interrupt another attorney and I don’t want
you to interrupt the witness. Do you understand, sir?
KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
OLDER: You will be given every opportunity to state whatever you want to
discuss, but you are not going to continually interrupt.
KANAREK: I understand.
OLDER: Now just a minute, that means right now also.
KANAREK: Yes.
OLDER: If you continue to interrupt I’m going to find you in contempt. I want
you to clearly understand that. When I am speaking, don’t interrupt.
KANAREK: Well, your Honor, it’s certainly not intentional.
OLDER: I believe it is.
KANAREK: Not to interrupt the court. The point is, your Honor, if Mr.
Bugliosi solicits a question...
OLDER: You heard what I said. Now, I mean it.
KANAREK: Then Mr. Manson is being denied due process.
OLDER: Do you have anything else to say?
KANAREK: May I make the record, your Honor is interrupting me.
OLDER: There is no record to make.
KANAREK: The point is...
OLDER: Now, Mr. Kanarek, I order you to stop talking this moment, do you
understand, sir?
KANAREK: Very well.
(Missing discussion over use of the term "sexual orgy." Judge Older denied
its use.)
Q: There was a back house at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: A little past mid-July, 1969, did a large group of members of the Family
and guests gather at the back house?
A: Yes, they did.
Q: About how many people?
A: As many people as there were in the Family - maybe twenty - and I believe
there were three or four guests.
Q: About what time of day was it?
A: It was nighttime.
Q: What took place at the back house?
A: There was one particular girl-I don’t remember her name- she was fairly
young, I’d say maybe sixteen, and she was very shy and very withdrawn, and I
remember she was lying in the middle of the room, and Charlie took her clothes
off and started making love to her and kissing her and, you know, she was trying
to push him off, and he just sort of pushed her back down and kissed her. And at
one point she bit him on the shoulder, and he hit her in the face, and then she
just sort of let go and got behind it, or whatever. Then he told Bobby
Beausoleil - no, excuse me - yes, he told Bobby Beausoleil to make love to her,
and he told everybody to touch her and to kiss her and to make love to her. And
everybody did.
(Kanarek made several motions. All were denied.)
Q: You say everyone made love to her. Are you referring to the male members
of the Family?
A: Everybody that was in the room. Yes.
KANAREK: Well, your Honor, may I have a continuing objection and a continuing
request to admonish, because this is most prejudicial what Mr. Bugliosi is
eliciting.
BUGLIOSI: The "G" is silent, sir. It is Bugliosi.
KANAREK: I am sorry.
OLDER: Let’s proceed.
Q: After everyone touched the girl, then what happened?
A: Then he told everybody to make love to everybody else.
Q: When you say "he" are you referring to Charles Manson?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you define in more detail what you mean by making love?
A: Well, we all shed our clothes, and we were laying on the floor, and it was
just like-it didn’t matter who was beside you, if it was a man or woman, you
just touched each other and made love with each other, and the whole room was
like this. It was sort of just like one.
Q: Was everyone nude?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there sexual intercourse?
A: Yes. That is what I just said.
Q: In your stay at the ranch did you ever have discussions with Charles
Manson?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he ever say anything about how not to get caught?
A: Yes. He used to say "If you don’t get caught, you won’t get it caught
thought in your head."
Q: Did he ever say anything to you about willing to kill or be killed?
A: Yes. He used to say "If you are willing to be killed, then you should be
willing to kill."
Q: One day in the woods at the Spahn Ranch did Mr. Manson indicate to you
that he was someone other than Charles Manson?
A: Yes. I remember he took me in his arms and said, "Don’t you know who I
am?"
Q: Did Charles Manson ever talk to you about the Beatles?
KANAREK: Object on the grounds of hearsay, conclusion, foundation - improper
foundation as to who was present, the time when it occurred.
OLDER: Place?
KANAREK: Place, right. Thank you, your Honor.
OLDER: Overruled.
KASABIAN: Yes. There was a certain passage in one song where he said that he
thought he heard - or did hear, I am not sure if it was thought or whatever -
that the Beatles were calling to him, saying, "Charlie, Charlie, send us a
telegram," or "Put out a song," or something. Yes, he felt that the Beatles were
calling him.
(Various objections by Kanarek)
MANSON (to Older): May I object to my lawyer’s objections?
OLDER: No, you may not, sir.
(Missing testimony about children being hidden due to fear of Black Panthers
coming to the ranch. More about armed guards at night and about Manson’s
reactions when blacks came to rent horses at the ranch)
KASABIAN : Well, they knew that we were super-aware, much more than other
white people, and they knew we knew about them and that they were eventually
going to take over, his whole philosophy on the black people, that they wanted
to do away with us because apparently they knew that we were going to save the
white race or go out to the hole in the desert.
Q: Did Mr. Manson mention the term Helter Skelter to you?
(Five objections by Kanarek)
A: Yes. It is a revolution where blacks and whites will get together and kill
each other and all non-blacks and brown people and even black people who do not
go on black people’s terms...
Q: Did he say who was going to start Helter Skelter?
A: Blackie. He used to say that blackie was much more aware than whitey and
super together, and whitey was just totally untogether, just would not get
together; they were off on these side trips, and blackie was really together.
KANAREK: I ask that the answer be stricken on the basis that it is gibberish,
your Honor, you cannot understand it.
BUGLIOSI: Why don’t you talk to your client about it?
OLDER: I admonish counsel to not engage in colloquy.
Q: During the day of August 8, do you recall Mr. Manson saying anything about
Helter Skelter?
A: Yes, I believe that was the day he got back from Big Sur. He was telling
us about his trip and that people were really not together, they were just off
on their little trips, and they just were not getting together. So he came out
and said, "Now is the time for Helter Skelter."
(Missing testimony involving Manson sending Atkins, Krenwinkel and Watson
away with extra clothes, a revolver and knives)
(Court recessed for lunch)
(Missing testimony)
A: I thought we were going on a creepy-crawl mission.
Q: A creepy-crawling mission?
A: Yes.
Q: What is a creepy-crawling mission?
A: A creepy-crawling mission is where you creepy-crawl into people’s houses
and you take things which actually belong to you in the beginning, because it
actually belongs to everybody. I remember one specific instance where the girls
made Charlie a long, black cape, and one of the girls was fitting it to him, and
he sort of said, "Now when I go creepy-crawling, people won’t see me because
they will think I am a bush or a tree."
Q: What was the first thing that happened after you arrived on top of the
hill?
A: Tex turned the car around and parked the car beside a telephone pole.
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: He got out of the car; he walked around the back of the car. I don’t know
if he had wire cutters or what, I don’t know, but I remember he climbed the
pole, and I saw the wires fall. Then he came back and got back in the car.
(Missing testimony about taking car down the street and walking back up the
hill)
Q: What happened after you, Katie, Sadie and Tex walked up the hill?
A: We climbed over - we climbed over a fence and then a light started coming
towards us and Tex told us to get back and sit down.
OLDER: Are you able to go on, Mrs. Kasabian?
A: Yes, I am. And a car pulled up in front of us and Tex leaped forward with
a gun in his hand and stuck his hand with the gun at the man’s head. And the man
said. "Please don’t hurt me, I won’t do anything." And Tex shot him four times.
Q: After Tex shot the driver four times what was the next thing that
happened?
A: The man just slumped over. I saw that, and then Tex put his hand in the
car and turned the ignition off. He pushed the car back a few feet then we all
proceeded towards the house and Tex told me to go in back of the house and see
if there were open windows or doors, which I did.
Q: Did you find any open doors or windows in the back of the house?
A: No. I came around from the back and Tex was standing at a window, cutting
the screen, and he told me to go back and wait at the car, and he may have told
me to listen for sounds, but I don’t remember him saying it. And I waited for a
few minutes, and then all of a sudden I heard people screaming, saying "No,
please, no." It was just horrible. Even my emotions cannot tell you how terrible
it was. I heard a man scream out "No, no." Then I just heard screams, just - I
don’t have any words to describe how a scream is. I never heard it before. It
was just unbelievably horribly terrible.
Q: Were these the screams of men or women or both?
A: It sounded like both.
Q: Were the screams loud screams or soft screams, or what?
A: Loud. Loud.
Q: Did the people appear to be pleading for their lives?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did the screaming continue?
A: Oh, it seemed like forever, infinite. I don’t know.
Q: What did you do when you heard these screams?
A: I started to run towards the house.
Q: Why did you do that?
A: Because I wanted to stop, because I knew what they had done to this man,
that they were killing these people.
Q: What happened after you ran toward the house?
A: There was a man just entering out of the door and he had blood all over
his face and he was standing by a post, and we looked into each other’s eyes for
a minute. I don’t know however long, and I said, "Oh God I am so sorry. Please
make it stop.’’ And then he just fell to the ground into the bushes. And then
Sadie came running out of the house, and I said "Sadie, please make it stop.’’
and she said, "It’s too late." And then she told me that she left her knife and
she couldn’t
find it. And while this was going on, the man had gotten up, and I saw Tex on
top of him, hitting him on the head and stabbing him, and the man was
struggling, and then I saw Katie in the background with the girl chasing after
her with an upraised knife, and I just turned and ran to the car down at the
bottom of the hill.
Q: You said you saw Katie. That is Patricia Krenwinkel?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she chasing someone?
A: A woman in a white gown.
Q: When Tex was stabbing this man, was the man on the ground?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he screaming?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he struggling with Tex?
A: Yes.
Q: And you say you saw Tex hit him over the head?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times did Tex stab this man?
A: I don’t know. He just kept doing it and doing it and doing it.
Q: When the man was screaming, do you know what he was screaming?
A: There were no words, it was beyond words, it was just screams. Please.
