Linda Kasabian Testimony
Manson-Atkins-Krenwinkel-Van Houten Trial Testimony
Linda Kasabian questioned by Vincent Bugliosi (July 30, 1970). Note many
objections have been deleted for clarity:
(Missing testimony about Manson driving Kasabian, Atkins and Grogan to the
beach.)
Q: What happened when you stopped the car?
A: We all got out of the car, started walking towards the beach. We got down
to the beach, walked on the sand, and Charlie told Clem and Sadie to stay a
little bit behind us, and Charlie and I started walking hand in hand on the
beach, and it was sort of nice, you know. We were just talking and I gave him
some peanuts, and he just sort of made me forget about everything, and just made
me feel good. I told him I was pregnant and started walking. We got to a side
street, a corner, and a police car came by and stopped, and asked us what we
were doing, and Charlie said we were just going for a walk. And Charlie said something like "Don’t you
know who I am?" or "Don’t you remember my name?" As if the policemen were
supposed to know him. They just said no. It was a friendly conversation. It just
lasted for a minute. Then we walked back to the car.
Q: You say you told Mr. Manson that you were pregnant. Were you pregnant by
him?
A: No.
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: I took over driving, still, we just pulled out of the parking spot, drove
down the hill, got back the same way we had come in, and Charlie asked us if we
knew any people at the beach. We all said "No." Then he looked at me and said
"What about that man you and Sandy met?" He said, "Isn’t he a Piggy?" I said,
"Yes, he is an actor." And then he further questioned me and he asked me if the
man would let him in. And I said, "Yes." And he asked me if the man would let my
friends in, Sadie and Clem. And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Okay, I want you to
kill him," and he gave me a small pocketknife. And at this point, I said,
"Charlie, I am not you. I cannot
kill anybody." And I don’t know what took place at that moment, but I was
very much afraid. And then he started to tell me how to go about doing it, and I
remember I had a knife in my hand, and I asked him, "With this?" And he said,
"Yes," and he showed me how to do it. He said, "As soon as you enter the
residence, the house, as soon as you see the man, slit his throat right away."
And he told Clem to shoot him. And then, also, he said if anything went wrong,
you know,
not to do it.
(Kanarek approached the bench.)
KANAREK: I ask for a mistrial.
OLDER: Motion is denied.
KANAREK: And also your Honor, then I ask the testimony to be excluded on the
grounds it is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial. It is hearsay. It is a
conclusion, and furthermore, your Honor, it is violative of the prosecution’s
representation that they were not going to put before the jury any crimes that
were not set out as they indicated. This is a solicitation to murder.
OLDER: Have you completed your argument, Mr. Kanarek? I want you to complete
your argument and I will rule once and for all.
KANAREK: It is not just to make a record. It is to try to convince the court.
OLDER: Have you completed your argument?
KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
OLDER: The motion is denied, let’s proceed.
(Missing testimony about how the target had picked up Kasabian and Sandra
Good, took them to his apartment. They showered and ate. Then Kasabian had sex
with him. Kasabian showed Manson where the man lived but purposely took him to
the wrong floor.)
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Then we walked back downstairs to the car, and he gave Clem a gun.
Q: Charlie Manson gave him a gun?
A: Yes. At this point he said something... he said that if anything went
wrong, you know, just hang it up, don’t do it; and of course, to hitchhike back
to the ranch, and for Sadie to go to the waterfall. And then he drove off.
Q: Before he drove off did Mr. Manson tell Clem and Sadie anything?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he tell them?
A: While I knocked on the door, for them to wait around the corner until I
entered, and then to ask the man if they could come in.
(Missing testimony about Kasabian knocking on door, someone answering and
Kasabian saying "Oh, excuse me, wrong door." The potential killers then left.)
Q: Why did you knock on the wrong door, Linda?
A: Because I didn’t want to kill anybody.
Q: What is the next thing that happened?
A: Sadie went to the bathroom.
Q: Where did she go to the bathroom?
A: As we were walking downstairs.
(Missing testimony about the three walking on the beach looking to hide the
gun.)
Q: What, if anything, were Sadie and Clem singing?
A: I remember one song that everybody always sang, but this day I remember
them singing the Beatle song about piggies and forks and knives, and eating your
bacon.
(Missing testimony about hiding gun in a sand dune, hitchhiking to a house,
smoking marijuana, hitchhiking back to Spahn Ranch. Kasabian and Grogan went to
the main ranch while Atkins stayed with the man who gave them the ride.)
Q: Do you know what LSD is?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever taken LSD?
A: Yes. I’d say approximately fifty times.
Q: Over how long a period of time have you taken LSD?
A: Over an approximately four year period.
Q: A four year period, off and on?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you seen other people take LSD?
A: Yes.
(Missing testimony. Bugliosi asked whether Kasabian has tried to leave Spahn
Ranch following the murders.)
A: Yes. On the morning after the second night I packed a sleeping bag with
some of Tanya’s clothes and planted it by the road in some bushes.
Q: Why did you plant the sleeping bag by the road?
A: I had to hide it. He wouldn’t let me walk out of there knowing that I’d
seen what I’d seen.
(Missing testimony about Kasabian leaving Spahn Ranch but leaving her
daughter behind. She went to a commune named Ojosarco near Taos, New Mexico to
find her husband. She told him and a friend, Joe Sage, about the murders. Sage
telephoned Spahn Ranch and spoke to Manson to confirm the story. Manson denied
it. Linda Kasabian then spoke, by phone, to Krenwinkel about her daughter.
Krenwinkel told her "You just couldn’t wait to open your big mouth, could you?"
Kasabian returned to Los Angeles, then back to Taos, and back to Los Angeles
again and retrieved her daughter. The two went to Miami, Florida and then to
Boston. She found she was wanted for questioning and turned herself in.)
Q: Why didn’t you do something about your guilt feelings before you were
arrested?
A: I was afraid, I was pregnant again, I had Tanya and I had this thing about
going to the police.
Q: You were brought back, then, to Los Angeles by the authorities in early
December, 1969?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: You have been in custody ever since?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And you had your child Angel while you were in custody?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: No further questions. The defense may inquire.
Linda Kasabian cross-examined by Paul Fitzgerald (July 30, 1970):
Q: You testified this morning, did you not, that you had taken LSD fifty
times, is that correct?
A: Approximately, yes.
Q: Do you recall when you first ingested LSD?
A: Yes. It was in Boston, it was Christmas Eve of ’65.
Q: And is there some way to describe the experiences that you would
experience each time you ingested the LSD?
A: I would call it a realization.
Q: Did it appear to you that when you took LSD it affected your normal
thought processes?
A: No, not really.
Q: How long does it usually take when you ingest LSD for it to take effect?
A: It depends on the acid.
Q: It also depends on the dosage?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you taken LSD in different dosages?
A: I never knew the exact dosage, no.
Q: Was there some reason you never knew the exact dosage?
A: Well, the dosage was not usually inscribed on the capsule or tablet, so I
don’t know.
Q: It is usually obtained through illegal sources, isn’t that correct?
A: I suppose.
Q: Well, I am asking you about your experience.
A: I never obtained it illegally.
Q: Did you ever obtain it legally?
A: Well, I’m not quite sure what you mean by legal or illegal.
Q: Well, for example if you go to a doctor or drugstore and you have
prescribed dosage, or frequently one knows what dosage or tablet or drug one has
taken.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know the unit of measure to describe the dosage of LSD?
A: No.
Q: For example, does it come in milligrams, micrograms, grams?
A: I think micrograms sounds right.
Q: Now, how were you able to arrive at the approximate figure of fifty LSD
experiences?
A: Because I can usually remember the exact trips.
Q: You have also ingested peyote, have you not?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: What is peyote?
A: It is a form of cactus and it looks like a button, and it grows in
southern Texas.
Q: Is it a hallucinogenic drug?
A: Yeah, I guess you could call it that.
Q: Is LSD a hallucinogenic drug?
A: Yes.
Q: Would it be fair to say that in LSD states you have had hallucinations?
A: Yes.
Q: Would it be fair to say that while taking peyote you have had
hallucinations?
A: Yes. But they are different.
Q: Can you describe them?
A: Well, my sole purpose for taking it was for realization, God realization.
Q: That was to discover God?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you successful in your endeavor?
A: I realized you don’t have to take peyote or LSD to discover God.
Q: Is it possible, in your experience, to take dosages of LSD that render you
not in control of your mental faculties?
A: Yes, you could take an overdose.
Q: How much would be an overdose?
A: I never took an overdose so I don’t know.
Q: Were the hallucinations you experienced while taking the drug, LSD, vivid
in character?
A: Sometimes there would be colors that might not be there.
Q: You would see things moving that were actually stationary, is that
correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever seen God under LSD?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Have you ever had delusions under the influence of LSD?
A: I don’t quite understand what you mean.
Q: A delusion is a false belief.
A: False belief. Yes, I believe I have.
Q: What sort of false belief did you have?
A: For one thing, I believed that I could see God through acid.
Q: Were you able to see God through acid?
A: Yes, the acid told me it was God.
Q: Are you familiar with the term "acid trip?"
A: Yes.
Q: What is an acid trip?
A: What I have been doing the last fifty times.
Q: Has LSD altered your personality? If you are able to answer that question.
A: Altered my personality? It showed me parts of myself, yes, it has altered,
I believe, to a certain extent.
Q: Is taking LSD like having a dream?
A: Yes, sort of, yes.
Q: Let’s say on Monday you ingested some LSD and you see and experience
something correct?
A: Okay, yes.
Q: On Wednesday you are not ingesting any LSD.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And you are seeing and hearing things, but the things you see and hear on
Wednesday are as real as the things you heard and saw on Monday?
A: Usually the things I saw and heard on Monday were in my own head, and they
were not real. But the things on Wednesday when I was not under the drug were
real, were stationary.
Q: Have you ever had conversations with a person by the name of Katherine
Share?
A: Is that Gypsy?
Q: Also known as Gypsy.
A: Yes, I have had conversations with her.
Q: Have you had LSD experiences with Gypsy?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever tell Katherine Share that you completely died under the
influence of LSD and you were reborn again?
A: I don’t recall that phrase, no.
Q: Do you recall ever having any experience under LSD in which you
experienced death?
A: It was death of values, of thoughts, something was put into me that died,
that I rejected.
Q: Did you ever experience an actual physical death of your own self?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever had the experience of your body melting under LSD?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever looked at your hand or some other portion of your body while
you had been under the influence of LSD?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever seen a part of your body dissolve under the influence of
LSD?
A: Dissolve?
Q: Dissolve, melt.
A: No.
Q: What was your mental state during the month of July, 1969?
A: I was extremely impressionistic. I was - I can't think of the words - to
describe it.
Q: Can you give us an example of your impressionistic aspects?
A: Well, somebody would tell me something, and at first something within
myself would say that is not right, and then this person would further, you
know, just keep, you know, putting it into me and putting it into me, and
finally, you know, I would just give up.
Q: You were very angry with your husband, were you not?
A: Angry? No, I was just rejected. I felt hurt.
(Missing testimony about drugs Kasabian had taken including drugs, mescaline,
psilocybin, and methydrine hydrochloride. She denied taking STP and belladonna.)
Q: You referred during your direct testimony to the hanging of little items
from trees near your campsite in Devil’s Canyon during the month of July, 1969.
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Little pieces of string, little pieces of wire, little pieces of paper?
A: Yes.
Q: And those things had a purpose?
A: Yes. So that we could find our way to the campsite.
Q: Weren’t those also witchy things?
A: Yes, that is what they were called.
Q: Do you know why they were called witchy things?
A: No, not particularly.
Q: Didn’t you feel that you were a witch during the month of July, 1969?
A: I was made to feel I was a witch, yes.
Q: Did you refer to yourself as a witch?
A: While I was there, yes, and at one point, once when I left, I referred to
myself as a witch.
Q: You are familiar with the name Yana, the witch?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that what you used to refer to yourself as?
A: Well, when I first entered the ranch, Gypsy told me that they all assumed
different names, and if I would like to pick out a name? And the name just came
to me, so I assumed that name, which I was called Yana maybe once or twice.
Which just, you know, sort of went down, and they called me Linda.
Q: Did you profess to have magical powers?
A: No, I didn’t.
Q: Do you feel you were a witch?
A: I think I tried to make myself believe I was a witch.
Q: Did you act like a witch?
A: No. I acted like myself.
Q: Were you a good witch or a bad witch?
A: I was a good witch, at the time when I was referring to myself as a witch.
Q: During the month of July and early August, 1969 were you preoccupied with
the devil and witchcraft?
A: No. No.
Q: Didn’t you attempt to practice the art of witchcraft?
A: No. I don’t even know what witchcraft is. I don’t know rituals.
Q: Well, was this whole thing about calling yourself a witch just a joke?
A: I don’t know. When I came into the ranch they told me I was a witch and
that they were witches, so they made me believe that I was a witch, too.
Q: Did you ever see any ceremonial witchcraft at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Ceremonial witchcraft? Not that I can recall, no.
Q: You didn’t see any black magic rites or anything like that, did you?
A: No. No.
Q: You never saw anybody at the Spahn Ranch do anything a real witch would
do, did you?
STOVITZ: What would a real witch do, your Honor?
Q: Is the term "Family" your word, your term?
A: I consider them a family and I considered myself part of the family while
I was there because we were a family.
Q: Is it fair to say that you coined the word Family?
A: That I coined the word Family?
Q: Yes.
A: I don’t understand what you mean.
Q: What did one have to do, if anything, to become a member of the Family you
are referring to?
A: I don't know. I don't know if there was any special thing you had to do.
(Missing testimony about definition of a family. Fitzgerald then referred to
the group orgy in the back house that was brought up in direct examination.)
Q: Were you forced in any fashion to participate in love making?
A: No.
Q: Did you make love with somebody?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make love with more than one person?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How many persons did you make love to?
A: Well, I remember I made love with Leslie and Tex, the three of us
together, and then Snake made love to me, and then Clem was there and then Clem
made love. That is all I recall.
Q: When you made love with the people you have just described, can you say
you wanted to?
A: Yes.
Q: I take it during the period of time you were making love to them you were
unaware of what other persons were making love with whom?
A: Sometimes I looked up, you know, but...
Q: And was this a pleasant experience for you?
A: Well, it was a different experience.
Q: Did you enjoy it?
A: Yeah, I guess I did. I will have to say I did.
(Court adjourned for the day)
