Linda Kasabian Testimony
Manson-Atkins-Krenwinkel-Van Houten Trial Testimony
Linda Kasabian cross-examined by Paul Fitzgerald (July 31, 1970):
(Missing testimony about Kasabian’s travels before meeting Manson.)
BUGLIOSI: He at this point apparently wants to go into this $5,000 theft. I
want to compliment Mr. Fitzgerald on the record for his professional and ethical
attitude in coming here to discuss this before asking questions about it.
FITZGERALD: I have information, and as a result of the information I believe,
and I intend to produce evidence on the defense case in chief that Linda
Kasabian had other motives other than this motive she has stated for leaving her
husband on or about July 4, 1969. I intend to introduce evidence that she came
to the Spahn Ranch about July 4 asking for some sort of amnesty or asking to be
hidden, to be hidden out because she had stolen $5,000 from her husband’s
roommate, one Charles Melton. We also intend to introduce evidence that she
attempted to give the $5,000 to various people at the Spahn Ranch, including one
Katherine Share, and Charles Manson. Now I think that the evidentiary import of
this evidence is that it impeaches her in terms of her stated motives, for
becoming involved at the Spahn Ranch. Number two, it impeaches her statements,
or rather, her altruistic statement about her innocence, her being
impressionistic and her naiveté.
OLDER: What question do you propose to ask?
FITZGERALD: I propose to ask her if she went to the Spahn Ranch for motives
other than what she stated. If she says "No," I would ask her, "Isn’t it a fact
you went to the Spahn Ranch because you stole the money from your husband’s
roommate?
OLDER: I think that is clearly objectionable, Mr. Fitzgerald.
BUGLIOSI: There are many crimes, your Honor, that we would like to introduce
at this trial against Mr. Manson, and we are not going into them because we just
cannot do it. The law is clear that you cannot introduce evidence of other
crimes.
OLDER: Let’s proceed, gentlemen.
Q: You slept in a cave on the evening of July 5; correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you sleep July 6?
A: In the cave.
Q: Who did you sleep with in the cave, if anybody, on July 6?
A: Let me see. I am not sure if it was that night or the night before. I
slept with Charlie that night.
Q: Did you sleep with anybody on the 7th?
A: I don’t know. I can’t go back there and remember exactly, you know, dates
and who.
Q: Do you remember who you slept with, if anyone, on the 8th?
A: No.
Q: The 10th?
A: No. But eventually I slept with all the men. So, I don’t know the dates.
(Attorneys approached the bench due to Manson loudly telling Fitzgerald to
ask Kasabian about the theft of the $5,000.)
Q: What sort of activity did you engage in during the day of July 5th?
A: Well, first I will have to explain to you the night of July 4th.
Q: You may do so.
A: Okay. I met Tex, and Tex took me into a dark shed, shack, whatever you
want to call it, and he made love to me, which was an experience that I had
never had before.
Q: You had never had sexual intercourse before?
A: No. I am saying that the experience I had in making love with Tex was a
total experience, it was different.
Q: In what respect?
A: That my hands were clenched when it was all over and I had absolutely no
will power to open my own hands, and I was very much afraid, I didn’t understand
it. And I questioned Gypsy about it later and she told me it was my ego that was
dying. And I told him that I was on my way to South America, and we had all this
money, and we were going to do these things.
Q: You had all what money?
A: We had some money that Charlie Melton had inherited.
BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, may we approach the bench.
OLDER: You may approach the bench.
BUGLIOSI: The way it developed is that apparently Tex told her to go steal
$5,000, whereupon she did go and steal the $5,000, and gave it to Leslie, I
believe. She didn’t keep it for herself.
She is about to testify to this. And I think the defense is now bringing in
through the back door what the court indicated it could not do.
OLDER: I don’t see it that way. She is now relating a conversation that she
had with Tex, one of the defendants in this case. I think it is permissible.
(Morning recess.)
Q: Would you continue with the conversation you had with Tex Watson?
A: Yes. I told him that we and these people were going to go to South America
by boat and sail around the world. And we had this money, and it seemed to me as
soon as I mentioned money he started going on this trip, and telling me that it
wasn’t their money; that it was everybody’s money and it was just there to take,
and that there was no right and wrong. It was just theirs, ours. I said,
"Hey..." He told me, you know, that I should go and take this money. I said,
"Hey, I can’t do that, he’s my brother." He said, "But there is no wrong." And
he just kept going on and on. And I accepted it and that was about the
conversation.
Q: Didn’t you have a philosophy or organized set of thoughts that time was
irrelevant, made no sense?
KANAREK: I object on the grounds the word organized-I don’t think this
witness - I object on the ground it is assuming facts not in evidence that she
has an organized thought.
(Overrulled. Possible missing testimony.)
Q: Were you interested in those philosophies?
A: I remember the first-up in the cave, the first thing he said, he started
to talk to me and I said that I already knew the truth, because I didn’t know
what he was going to say. And he said "Don’t you want to hear it?" So he started
talking to me about it.
Q: What would Charlie do with you when he spent this time with you?
A: He would talk to me, he would make love to me.
Q: How many times did he make love to you?
A: Let me think. The cave, the waterfall, the trailer and the house; four
times.
Q: Did you disagree with his philosophy in some respects?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you told him that you disagreed with it when he told you?
A: No. Because I was always told, "Never ask why."
Q: Were you also told that you couldn’t disagree?
A: The girls used to always tell me that. "We never question Charlie. We know
that what he is doing is right."
Q: Were you afraid?
A: Yes.
Q: What were you afraid of?
A: I was just afraid. He is a heavy dude - man.
Q: What is a heavy dude?
A: A dude is a man. Heavy. He just had something, you know, that could hold
you. He was a heavyweight, you know. He is just heavy, period.
Q: Did you love Charlie?
A: Yes, I did. To be truthful I felt... I felt that he was the Messiah come
again; you know, the second coming of Christ.
Q: You thought he was God?
A: No.
Q: You thought he was a God-man?
A: Yes.
Q: You thought he was a deity in human form?
A: Well, I thought he was the Messiah.
Q: A second Jesus Christ?
A: Yes.
Q: You used the term-or I believe my notes are correct-but I believe on your
direct examination you said, "No sense makes sense."
A: Yes.
Q: What did you mean by "No sense makes sense?"
A: I don’t know. That is what Charlie told me.
Q: Why are you testifying?
A: You want me to tell you?
Q: I asked you the question.
A: Well, from the moment it happened I knew that I would be the one to tell
the truth; I knew I would be the one to tell it, and I never had immunity in my
mind. I never knew this was going to happen. This is something that to me I look
at as a miracle. I just know I have to do this, whether it’s immunity or not, it
doesn’t matter.
(Missing testimony. Fitzgerald read Kasabian’s immunity agreement. "...that
if you testify to everything you know about the Tate/LaBianca murders, the
district attorney’s office will petition the court to grant you immunity from
prosecution and dismiss all charges against you." He questioned Kasabian about
her agreement.)
Q: Is it your understanding of that immunity agreement that if you say these
defendants are innocent you are granted immunity?
A: I just have been told that as long as I tell the truth I will be granted
immunity.
(Missing testimony.)
