THE WITNESS: Jeanne Denise Mallett, J-e-a-n-n-e; Denise , D-e-n-i-s-e ; Mallett , M-a-I-I-e-t-t.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

Q Miss Mallett, do you prefer to be called Denise?

A Yes.

Q As opposed to Jeanne?

A Yes.

Q Denise, you presently live in Texas?

A Yes.

Q And you flew out here to testify?

A Yes.

Q How old are you?

A 21.

Q I take it you know the defendant, Charles Tex Watson?

A Yes.

Q When did you first meet Mr. Watson?

A In about 1965.

Q Where were you living at the time and where was he living?

A I was living in Dallas and he lived in Copeville.

THE COURT: Excuse me. Can you hear the lady?

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Can you sit up a little closer, Denise, and we'll move this. You were living in Dallas and he was living in Copeville?

A Right.

Q How far is Dallas from Copeville?

A About 35 or 40 miles.

Q And how did you happen to meet Mr. Watson?

A I was spending a summer at my grandmother's and I met him through friends or a cousin.

Q Where did your grandmother live?

A In Farmersville.

Q How far is that from Copeville?

A I believe it is about seven miles.

Q So you were only fourteen or fifteen at the time?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was this the summer of 1965?

A Yes, sir, I believe so.

Q And did you enter into somewhat of a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship with Mr. Watson?

A Something of that type.

Q Well, did you ever date him?

A Yes, some.

Q You saw him frequently during the summer of 1965?

A Yes.

Q Did you see him during the fall and the winter of 1965?

A I'm not real sure. I might have seen him a couple of times during that year.

Q How about 1966; did you see him again then?

A During the summer.

Q Again, in Copeville or Farmersville?

A Right.

Q Pardon?

A Yes.

Q In Copeville and Farmersville?

A Right.

Q And you continued to date Mr. Watson?

A Something of that type, yes.

Q You went with him; is that correct?

A Well, I couldn't say that. We were friends or whatever, you know.

Q You were not going steady with him?

A No.

Q But you would on occasion go out on dates with him?

A Yes.

Q What about the winter or the fall, winter and spring of 1966, did you see him then?

A '66 or '67?

Q I'm sorry, '67.

A I don't believe I saw him that winter, I'm not sure.

Q What about the summer of 1967?

A Yes, I saw him during the summer of 1967.

Q Where did you see him?

A In Dallas.

Q Was he living in Dallas at the time?

A Yes.

Q And you were also living in Dallas?

A I was visiting friends in Dallas.

Q Did you see him frequently in the summer of 1967?

A I was only in Dallas for about six weeks.

Q Did you see him quite frequently during that six-week period?

A Yes, maybe not the whole six weeks, but I saw him frequently.

Q Now, you are aware that eventually Mr. Watson left for California?

A Yes.

Q Do you know approximately when he left for California?

A It must have been late that summer in 1967.

Q The summer of 1967?

A Yes.

Q Now, prior to his coming to California when was the last time you saw him?

A In August of 1967.

Q In Dallas?

A Yes.

Q During that period of time, primarily the summers of 1965 and '66 and 1967, how would you describe Charles Tex Watson?

A He was always very mannerly and happy.

Q Would you say he was a lot of fun?

A Yes.

Q Did you have a good time with him?

A Yes.

Q Would you characterize him as being somewhat carefree?

A Yes.

Q Now, after you last saw him in August of 1966 when is the next time you saw him?

A In November of 1969.

Q Where did you see him at that time?

A I saw him in Farmersville.

Q And how did you happen to see Mr. Watson in November of 1969 in Farmersville; how did it come about?

A I was visiting my grandmother and I called his house when I heard he was back in Texas, at his parent's home.

Q All right; did Mr. Watson then come over to your grandmother's place?

A Right.

Q In Farmersville?

A Right.

Q And what part of November was this, early, mid or late November?

A About the middle or the latter part of November.

Q How long did you spend with him that particular day?

A Just a couple of hours.

Q What did you do?

A We just rode around, talked, went to the Dairy Queen and got a coke.

Q Did he drive the car?

A Yes.

Q And you hadn't seen Mr. Watson, then, for over two years?

A Yes.

Q How did he look to you in November of 1969?

A He looked great, you know; he looked just like he had always looked. He was a little thinner, but that's all.

Q You say he looked great?

A Yes.

Q But you noticed that he had lost some weight?

A Yes.

Q But, apart from that he looked great?

A Yes.

Q What about his personality?

A Well, he seemed -- he seemed pretty well the same; he had a lot of new ideas and things, but other than that he seemed, you know, he seemed pretty much the same.

Q When you say he seemed pretty much the same, did he again appear to be carefree?

A Well, I don't know whether I would use the word "carefree" or not; but he seemed pretty, you know, just a normal person.

Q Did he seem to be happy?

A Yes, some of the time.

Q You had fun with him?

A Yes.

Q Was this on a Sunday that he came over to your grandmother's place in Farmersville?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you see him the next day?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where did you see him the next day?

A We went to Denton.

Q How far is Denton from Farmersville?

A About 30 or 40 miles, I believe.

Q And you were staying overnight at your grandmother's place?

A No, I was in Dallas and I came to his home.

Q Where?

A In Copeville.

Q Okay; so you met him, then, this would be a Monday?

A Yes, sir.

Q You met Tex at his home in Copeville?

A Yes, sir.

Q And then you and he went where, now?

A To Denton.

Q What was the purpose of your going to Denton?

A We went to visit some friends.

Q Your friends or his friends?

A My friends.

Q Did you do anything that afternoon?

A Yes, we spent the afternoon at the Holiday Inn.

THE COURT: I didn't get that.

(Record read.)

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did you engage in sexual intercourse with Mr. Watson at the Holiday Inn?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you have sexual intercourse with Mr. Watson before he came out to California or was this the first time you had ever had sexual intercourse with him?

A I'd say this was the first time we had ever had sexual intercourse, but there had been sexual relations before.

Q Did you notice any difference in Tex, from a sexual standpoint, since you had last seen him?

A He was rather animalistic, I would say. I don't know, it was strange.

Q Was he kind of aggressive?

A Yes.

Q Vigorous?

A Yes.

Q Now, after the afternoon at the Holiday Inn, what happened next?

A We went to -- I took him back; he went back to Copeville and I went back to Dallas.

Q When is the next time you saw him?

A I believe it was on Thursday.

Q Of the same week?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where did you see him at that time?

A I saw him at his home in Copeville and then he came to Dallas later on that night.

Q How did you happen to get to see him; in other words, did you call him, did he call you?

A This was Thanksgiving and I'd spent the day at my grandmother's; then I stopped by his house on my way home and he came to Dallas that night to my home.

Q Did you know that he was going to come to Dallas that night?

A Yes.

Q And this would be Thanksgiving night?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did Tex visit with you at your mother's place?

A Yes.

Q How long did he spend with you?

A He spent the evening, about 6:00 to 11 :00 or 11 :30.

Q Were you inside the house all night?

A Yes.

Q You didn't go anywhere?

A I don't believe so.

Q What about two days later, a Saturday; did anything happen on that date?

A Yes, he called and he came to Dallas that afternoon.

Q So you were in Dallas and he was in Copeville?

A Right.

Q He called you on the telephone; is that correct ?

A Yes.

Q He said he wanted to see you?

A Yes.

Q So he drove to Dallas; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q What did you do in Dallas that day? This would be a Saturday, the Saturday following Thanksgiving.

A We drove around a bit in Dallas, stopped and got a beer.

Q Did he get the beer or did you get it?

A He did.

Q Okay.

A And we went to a park and talked for a while and then we went back to my home and spent the evening there watching television.

Q Then he went back to Copeville?

A Yes, sir.

Q What about that Sunday, the following day; did you see Tex again?

A Yes, I went to his home in Copeville and we spent the afternoon at the lake.

Q There is a lake there near the --

A Yes.

Q -- outskirts of town?

A Yes.

Q Did you talk with Tex at that time?

A Yes.

Q Did you talk about any plans that you and he may have had for the future?

A Well, he was discussing going back to California and I was thinking about going, also.

Q Did he say he was interested in going to any particular part of California?

A He said something about northern California.

Q He didn't say he was going to southern California?

A No.

Q Could you go into more detail about the discussion about his going to northern California?

A Well, we had discussed maybe both of us going, you know, to northern California; it was nothing definite, we just discussed it.

Q That night he went to jail; is that correct?

A Yes, sir.

Q And that was the last time you saw him?

A Yes.

Q Other than right now, of course.

A Yes, sir.

Q During this week that you saw him off and on in Copeville, Denton, Farmersville and Dallas -- I guess these were the four places -- how did he dress?

A He was always very neat, had on slacks and a shirt most of the time.

Q Did he look clean?

A Yes, sir.

Q What about his hair?

A His hair was cut. It wasn't long at all.

Q Did you notice any difference in his walk during this period?

A No, sir.

Q Or the manner in which he spoke to you?

A No, sir.

Q He seemed to be the same old Tex; is that right?

A Yes.

Q You will have to talk a little more loudly, please.

A Yes.

Q Denise, I show you People's 306 for identification. Do you recognize this as being a photograph of Charles Tex Watson?

A Yes, sir.

Q Does this photograph accurately depict the way Mr. Watson looked in November of 1969?

A Yes, sir.

Q Back in Texas?

A Yes, sir.

Q During this week that you spent with him off and on, I presume you and he talked about many things; is that correct?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did he ever talk about his experience in California?

A He spoke -- he seemed to be very impressed with California and he spoke of a couple of places that he had lived.

Q Could you go into that for the judge and the jury?

A Oh, he told me about a beach house that he once lived in and then he mentioned that he also lived on a ranch.

Q On a ranch?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did he say with whom he lived on this ranch?

A No. He never mentioned any names of any other people he lived with.

Q Although he didn't mention any names, did he indicate the nature of the group? Boys, girls, or what have you?

A He said there were quite a few women, maybe 30 girls, and just a couple of men.

Q Did he say who was the leader of this group?

A He said he and one other person were the main people.

Q He didn't tell you who this other person was?

A No, sir.

Q But he said that he and some other person were the main people in this group?

A Yes.

Q That lived at the ranch?

A Yes.

Q Did he say that while he was out in California, he met anyone whom he thought was Jesus Christ?

A No, sir.

Q Did he tell you that he met anyone in California who in his opinion was kind of a supernatural being?

A No, sir.

Q Did he talk to you about being in the wig business out here in California?

A Yes. He mentioned that.

Q What did he say?

A He was combing my hair one time and he just mentioned that he had been in the wig business.

Q Did he mention drugs to you?

A Yes, we discussed it.

Q What did he say?

A He said that he had, you know, used a lot of drugs, mainly acid, and that he used to take massive doses.

Q Of acid?

A Yes.

Q Did you ever smoke marijuana with Tex?

A Yes.

Q Back in Texas?

A Yes.

Q In November of 1969?

A Yes.

Q Now, you say that Tex seemed to be impressed with California?

A Yes.

Q How did you get the impression that he was impressed? What did he say that led you to that conclusion?

A Well, it just seemed like he had a good time here. He really liked the place. He comes from a very small town and he just really liked California.

Q Did he talk about black people in California?

A Yes. He said something to the effect that there were a lot of black men going with white women now and he spoke of the black-white revolution that was going to take place.

Q Spoke about a black-white war?

A Yes.

Q Talked to you about a pit in the desert?

A Yes. He told me all about that.

Q And helter-skelter?

A He didn't explain.

Q Did he mention the words "helter-skelter" to you?

A He said it some but it was never mentioned in any of his ideas or anything.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you. No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:

Q Denise, all the times that you spent with Charles back in Texas were times that you wanted to be with him; is that correct?

A Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I don't understand your question, sir.

Q When you were with him, it was because you wanted to be with him; is that right?

A Yes, sir.

Q You weren't forced to go out with him?

A No, sir.

Q You enjoyed being with him; is that right?

A Yes.

Q And he enjoyed being with you?

A I guess so, or he wouldn't have been there.

Q He obviously went out of his way to see you. I think you told us he drove a number of miles on a number of occasions to be with you; is that right?

A Yes, sir.

Q So the two of you got along pretty well; is that right?

A Yes.

Q I take it he was not violent toward you?

A No.

Q He didn't hit you or beat you?

A No.

Q Or abuse you in any way?

A No, sir.

Q When you were asked whether Charles seemed carefree after he got back from California, you were kind of hesitant there for a minute. Was it because he was in fact not very carefree after he got back?

A I was only with him for that one week and I wouldn't be able to describe it as carefree.

Q Didn't he seem a little -- I am sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

A That is okay.

Q Didn't he seem a little more serious than he had been previously?

A Yes. I would say he had a lot of new ideas. People change, you know. I hadn't seen him for two years.

Q Did he seem to be sort of preoccupied with those new ideas?

A No, sir.

Q Didn't he spend a great deal of time talking about his California experiences?

A Yes.

Q He talked about this hole in the ground, the bottomless pit, so to speak?

A Yes.

Q And the revolution that you have told us about?

A Yes.

Q As a matter of fact, he repeated that a number of times, didn't he?

A No -- mainly just on one day he was explaining the whole thing to me.

Q Other than that, was it just a lot of small talk?

A Yes, sir.

Q Between the two of you, sort of personal between the two of you?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was there anything unusual about the marijuana smoking experience that you had with him there in November of 1969?

A What do you mean by unusual?

Q Do you remember how you described it, or did you ever describe it to anybody?

A Describe how he acted?

Q Yes.

A There were times when he was a bit strange.

Q While under the influence of marijuana?

A Yes.

Q As a matter of fact, you said at one time he acted crazy, didn't you?

A Yes, but not -- yes, I believe I did say that.

Q What?

A I did say that.

Q What did you mean by that?

A I think strange is the best word to describe it – different.

Q Didn't you say he kind of flipped or something when he was stoned; is that right?

A Yes. He was different than he was.

Q You mean he was different when he was stoned than he was when he was sober?

A Sometimes.

Q How many times did you smoke marijuana with him during that week and a half?

A Only two or three times.

Q Two or three times?

A Yes.

Q Were they all on the same date?

A No.

Q Or on separate occasions?

A Separate occasions.

Q And would his reactions under the influence of marijuana be the same on each of these occasions?

A No, sir. There were only a couple of periods during each -- you know, during a couple of times maybe that he acted a little, you know, strange.

Q Were you smoking marijuana at the same time that he was?

A Yes.

Q On each of these two or three occasions?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was there anything he said or did to you that was different while he was under the influence of marijuana on these occasions than otherwise?

A That he specifically said?

Q Yes, or did.

A No, sir. I can't think of anything specific.

Q Just a sort of feeling that you had?

A Yes.

Q That when he was stoned he sort of flipped out?

A Yes.

Q At any rate, even though he was sort of flipped out while he was on marijuana, that didn't particularly make you fearful of him, did it?

A No, sir.

Q As a matter of fact, you talked about coming back to California with him, didn't you?

A Yes.

Q Who used the term "northern California"?

A We were talking about going where it snows. It snows in Northern California.

Q Didn't you know that there might be snow in the mountains in southern California?

A I'm not very familiar with California, actually.

Q Was that the real subject matter of your discussion about going to California -- where it snows?

A The subject matter of everything we talked about or just when we were talking about that?

Q Going to California, I mean.

A Yes. We talked about going to northern California.

Q Did he use the term "northern California" or "going to California where it snows"?

A I believe he used the term "northern California."

Q Do you know where the Owens Valley is in California?

A No, sir.

Q Did you ever ask him what he meant by "northern California"?

A No, sir.

Q Ever ask him what cities that might be close to?

A No.

Q But you were willing to go there anyway; is that correct?

A It was nothing definite. It was just something that we discussed.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

THE COURT: Thank you. You may be excused.

MR. BUGLIOSI: May the witness be allowed to return to the State of Texas, your Honor?

THE COURT Go ahead if she wishes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: The reason I asked that is the defense might want her to remain. We have no further questions of her. May she return?

MR. BUBRICK: Certainly.

THE COURT: You don't expect to call her?

MR. BUBRICK: No.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you.