Charles Watson Testimony, September 1971 - Part 1
Q Did you and Dean (Morehouse) then live in the tent?
A For a couple of weeks.
Q What, if anything, were you doing on the ranch while you lived there at
this time?
A Charlie was coming around us all the time and started talking to us and
he would bring his guitar up to the tent and bring some girls with him and
he would sit around and play music and I knew he had marijuana. We smoked
marijuana and somewhere in that period right there we started taking acid.
Q Well, were your acid ingestions, that is the taking of acid, something
that you did alone or while as a member of the group?
A It was always as a member of the group or when Charlie would give it to
me by myself or something.
Q Did you do anything else while you and Dean were in the tent?
A Yes, he, Charlie, asked me to build a house for him.
Q Did you do that?
A I built a house for him.
Q What sort of house did you build?
A It was just a house, you know, just a little house called the "in case
house."
Q Like in case you have to go somewhere?
A In case that was the only place to go.
Q Do you remember when you built this house, Charles?
A It was still right there, started on it I know when I was living in the
tent, in that first two-week period, and I built on it until December.
(small amount of missing testimony)
Q And aside from singing and chanting, did he ever discuss philosophy
with the group?
A Yes, this was done every night, too.
Q What would he tell you, if you remember? Well, during this first period
I was there I know he was always talking about bringing out your
inhibitions, I believe; you bring out all the stuff that -- especially on
acid, he would -- we'd all be on acid or something and he would throw all
your faults up in front of you, and that's the way he'd pull them out of
you. He'd pull the thoughts out of your head and that wouldn't be there any
more.
Q Is this the reaction you got to Mr. Manson?
A Yes
Q How often would you use acid while you were at the ranch during this
period of time?
A Anywhere from one, two or three times a week , I'd say.
Q And who supplied it when you used it?
A Most of the time when it came, the girls -- like Charlie used to say
that they were the power, you know, the power to get new guys and power to
run the whole thing. He used to say they had all the power and they would be
out hitchhiking and they'd bring home a new guy or something, and pretty
soon he'd be coming back with acid and this is kind of how acid came into
the ranch, is by people just bringing it, you know.
Q Well, when you first started to live at the ranch, were there any drugs
other than acid which were available?
A All different kinds of drugs: Acid, mescaline, psilocybin, and the THC,
and STP, stuff like that; all psychedelic drugs, I guess you'd say.
Q Were the drugs that you have just enumerated drugs that Manson usually
kept under his control?
A Yes, it would always be in a Baggie and it would be under his control
or the girls' control, and the girls' control and his control was the same
control. so he would just ask one of the girls to go and put the acid away
and then when he wanted it, he'd ask the girls to bring it to him.
Q Could a person who wanted acid just go over and take some on their own,
without permission from Mr. Manson?
A Nobody ever knew where the Baggie was. It was under his control all the
time.
Q (By The Court) Do you know what a stash is?
A Yeah, that's what it was; it was a stash.
Q Do you know what speed is, Charles?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a white powder that gets you to speeding.
Q Were you using speed at this time?
A Not at that time, No.
Q What feelings, if any, did you develop about Manson during the period
of time that you were talking about, between September through December, or
while you were working on the house?
Q It was just -- I looked on him as kind of a supreme being, I guess
you'd say, like I said before, that could see all my thoughts that were in
my head; and the longer I was around him, the more of these thoughts I
didn't have anymore.
Q Were you staying in touch with your family during this time?
Q (By The Court) That is your own family, not Manson.
Q (By Mr. Bubrick) Yes. Your own family, your mother and father?
A Not during that time, no.
Q Were you aware of the fact that you were changing in some respect?
A I was aware of it, but I was losing -- losing from what I had, it was
going out of me, and that's why I left in December.
Q What did you feel you were losing when you left in December?
A I was losing my -- myself, my individual thinking, like I was becoming
Charles Manson and I was becoming the girls. I remember we could look into
each other's face and it would be the same face; my face would be Manson's
and the girls' faces would be Manson's, and just have one face.
Q Was this something that Manson preached?
A Yes.
(Several missing pages of testimony)
Q What happened in December?
A I had to take an Army physical the first part of December there, so I
was at a telephone, I remember, at a friend's house, at a friend of the
family's house, in Topanga Canyon and I called up Dave and this is when I
called Dave and told him that I was kind of losing myself.
Q Dave Neale?
A Yes; and this is when I asked if I could come and stay with him.
Q Did you leave?
Q Do you remember where Dave was living at this time?
A He was living in the Pasadena like area.
Q With whom?
A With his brother.
Q Jay?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Did you move in with them?
A Yes, I did.
Q Incidentally, was it difficult to leave the ranch?
A Yes, it was. Like I --
Q No, I don't mean, you know, psychologically. I mean was it difficult to
just walk off the property, physically, just move, walk away from it?
A Well, we had been up north on -- Charlie had sent us up north to see a
man called the Candy Man and going to bring back some candy. So we went up
north and Charlie wasn't with us then you know, like he had told us to go up
there and see about the candy and so a couple of guys and I and some of the
girls went up north in a school bus. When we got back down from north this
is when I called Dave.
Q Did you call him from the area of the ranch?
A No, I called him from the beach area around Topanga Canyon.
Q Then you never went back to the ranch, is that correct?
A I did on one occasion.
Q No, I mean coming back from this northern trip that you have told us
about.
A I went to live at Dave's; then something drew me back to Manson. Then I
went back to Dave's again.
Q But when you called Dave in the latter part of November or early
December, you went out and stayed with him in Pasadena, is that correct?
A Right.
Q How long did you stay with him then?
A I stayed with him until he went into the Army.
Q When was that, if you remember?
A Somewhere the first of December.
Q And after he was gone did you continue to live with Jay?
A Yes, I did.
Q Same apartment in Pasadena?
A Yes.
Q How long did you stay?
A On and off, I'd say about a month and a half.
Q Did you eventually get back to the family; that is, to Manson and the
ranch?
A Yes, I did.
Q How did this happen?
A Well, that was about -- I called him up one day and said -- I just
called up the ranch, you know, and --
Q Do you know why?
A Well, like I said, there was kind of a power that was just - pulling me
back, a magnetic thing between my mind and their mind that just pulled me
back, I don't know why.
Q All right, you called Manson on the phone?
A I called the ranch on the phone.
Q Okay.
A Manson convinced me to come back out and just see them, you know, just
see them.
Q Did you do that?
A Yes, I went out.
Q And when was this?
A That was about some time in February.
Q 1969?
A Yes, February or March, somewhere like that.
Q Did you go back out to the ranch then?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you stay then?
A Yes, I did.
(Possible missing testimony)
Q Where did you live on the ranch, or where did you move into when you
got back to the ranch?
A We were just staying all over the ranch, kind of, all over the ranch
part there.
Q Do you have any idea how many people were at the ranch when you got
back in February or March?
A I'd say around 30, again.
Q And how many men, if you remember?
A There were a few more men then.
Q And what did you do if anything? What was your work assignment?
A Well, at that time he had started a club, a little club or something
there at the ranch, and also Charlie had got a couple of dune buggies; and
so he kind of got me to working on the dune buggies.
Q Did he still preach or philosophize with you?
A It was the same, except he had a different kind -- his philosophy had
changed.
Q What was he talking about now?
A Now, he was talking about the Beatles all the time and Helter-skelter
and the revolution coming down, and singing about it and talking about the
end of the world coming and about the bottomless pit out on the desert, and
all of these songs that the Beatles had, someway, he was bringing all them
out, too, to back his philosophy, I guess you'd call it.
Q Had you ever listened to the Beatles' music prior to this time?
A Yes, on a few occasions, yes.
Q Were they played at the ranch?
A Yes, in the saloon where the club was.
Q Had they been played when you were first there between September and
December?
A Not those records, no.
Q Was there much talk about the Beatles when you were first there between
September and December?
A No, none at all.
Q Then, how regularly would this helter-skelter philosophy of his be
talked about?
A Every night and all day long.
Q Were drugs being used at the same time?
A Yes, a lot of real heavy physical and mental acid, you know.
Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear that,.
A A lot of heavy physical acid and mental acid, too.
Q What was mental acid?
A Well, that's the kind that would -- well, both of it did the same,
except one of it drew your body, drew stuff out of your mind; and the other
at the same time would be drawing your body.
Q Did you ever use belladonna while you were at the ranch, Charles?
A Yes, I used it in April of '69.
Q Do you remember how you first got it?
A Paul Watkins got some from around the ranch there and Brenda cooked it
up.
Q What form was it in when you used it?
A A root form.
Q Had you ever seen anybody eating it in root form?
A No, I hadn't. I never had seen it before.
Q Did you know what belladonna was used for?
A No, I didn't even know it would have any effect on you, I had never
even heard of it before this.
Q What happened when you took it?
A I took it on the ranch and I started hitchhiking down to this
motorcycle shop and by the time I got down there I was crawling on the
ground.
Q Do you remember anything else that happened on that occasion?
A Yeah, I remember having cotton mouth so bad that I couldn't speak there
at first; and then I got this little scooter thing out, a little hill
climber, hill climber motorcycle out of the shop, and started toward the
ranch with it and I blacked out going down.
Q Where were you when you came to?
A I was in the back seat of somebody's car.
Q Do you remember anything else about that experience?
A The police were shaking me and waking me up.
Q Did they take you off to jail?
A They carried me off, one of them had me under both sides of my arm and
they were dragging me.
Q Did anything happen to you in jail that you remember?
A I had a fight.
Q Do you know why?
A Three guys jumped on me and they said I was crazy, and I was insane;
that's why they beat me up.
Q Did you get any injury in that fight?
A I cut -- they cut my eye; one of them cut up my eye pretty bad. I had
to have it sewed up.
Q Do you remember what jail you were in when this occurred?
A I found out later it was Van Nuys.
Q And do you remember what month this was?
A April, I believe.
Q Do you have any idea what the belladonna that was being brewed up by
Paul Watkins and Brenda was to be used for?
A I know after that I heard that Charlie kept talking about putting it in
the water tanks of this city.
Q Was that in connection with helter-skelter, if you know?
A Something in that -- something to do with it.
Q Did Manson say anything more about helter-skelter during this period of
time?
A That's all that was talked about during this whole period of time,
during the whole period of time it was helter-skelter; and like the more
acid we took, the more helter-skelter it would be.
Q Well, did he say when it was going to start?
A Any second.
Q Is that what he would say?
A Uh-huh.
Q Did he tell you what the dune buggies were to be used for?
A Yeah, after helter-skelter came down, that's how we'd get out of the
city.
Q Did you believe in helter-skelter?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you believe in revolution?
A Very much so.
Q How about the bottomless pit?
A Yes.
Q Was there any portion of the Manson philosophy that you disagreed with?
A No, I agreed with it all.
Q Did he tell you what you would have to do during helter-skelter?
A No, it was just that I remember we were the only ones that were going
to be saved, because we didn't have any fear.
Q Was fear a big thing with Manson?
A Yes, it was.
Q Did he talk about it a lot?
A All the time. This is what the acid would do, and plus Manson's
philosophy.
Q What did he say about fear?
A He said that we had already experienced -- we were experiencing now all
the fear that you could have, and that he would take us on wild dune buggy
trips and wild car trips while we were on acid; and the acid and his
philosophy and him scaring us all, with the animals and stuff, would pull
out all our fear until we had no fear at all; and then he'd talk about the
people down in the city, how they were afraid to die and that we had already
experienced death and that we were experiencing death at the time, and
pretty soon we were dead mentally.
Q Were there any demonstrations by Manson during these sessions where
death was talked about?
A He would always make out like he had – somebody was sitting in a chair
on the other side of the room, and some person that had a lot of fear, like
one of the persons down the hill or something, and he would pretend like --
like we were just sitting there with no fear and we could just see the fear
in this imaginary person that was sitting there, and he would be talking to
them and telling them how not to be so scared or anything and don't worry
and everything would be alright, all he wanted was for you to sign all their
possessions to him and after they'd do this he'd just scare them to death.
Q Did he use animals in demonstrating fear?
A Yes. He would bring animals into the room and he would take an animal,
like a cat, for instance, and he would start throwing it up in the air and
squeezing it and pulling on it and the cat was crying at first, I remember,
and then when he got through with it, the cat didn't even -- never would
make a noise again and it was still walking around alive.
Q Did he give the cat any drugs or anything of that nature, if you know?
A No, no drugs at all. He would do us the same way. He would take us into
his arms, on acid trips, and he called it the movement or the flow, or
something and he would take all our stiffness out of our body, until we
would just float right with him.
Q How would he do that?
A I don't know how he would do it. He just put his arms around you and
take you and caress you and start moving you in all different directions and
taking all of your fear out of you and all you are and the rest that you had
in you out of you, until there wasn't anything, until you and him were one
body.
Q You would move when he moved?
A It was the same movement, the same body. There was no push or there was
no pull.
Q If you would lift your arm up, it would just drop down immediately?
A Yes, because he would take it and he could move you in any direction
you wanted to move.
Q And you didn't resist; is that correct?
A There was no push or no pull, no resistance, just like one, being one
body.
Q I think you told us you started to use -- you used belladonna for the
first time in April of '69; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Did you use it again while you were at the ranch?
A Yes, I did.
Q How often would you use it?
A Not very often. About once a month or a little over.
Q What effect would it have on you when you use it?
A About the same effect all the time.
Q What was that?
A Well, the blackout and then waking up and having hallucinations and
being completely away from reality and talking to space people that would
come down out of the sky and you could see their space ships.
Q Did you ever do that? Talk to space people?
A Yes, uh-huh.
Q Where, do you remember?
A Well, several times out at the ranch and one time in jail the first
time.
Q Was that what led to the fight in jail?
A That was some of the things because I was making strange noises back at
the space people.
Q How long would a trip on belladonna last?
A It would depend on if you got woken up. If somebody woke you up, you
would start having a lot of hallucinations. I know it took about 18 hours
before you could walk around on your own with it and then if you took speed
with it then you could move around.
Q Did you ever take belladonna and speed at the same time?
A Yes. That was one of the things to take belladonna and then when you
woke up to get your energy going and to -- you would have a lot of energy
from the belladonna and the belladonna would give you so much energy that
after you woke up, it would give you so much energy that you just wouldn't
know what to do. You would be bright red, kind of red, and your whole body
would be dehydrated to where you wouldn't be anything but muscles and bones.
Q When you say the body was bright red, did you actually turn red or did
you imagine that you were red?
A Well, I looked red from my eyes. I don't know how I looked to other
people.
Q Did you ever look at yourself in the mirror under belladonna?
A No, not that I can recall.
Q I think you told us that when you were there, when you were at the
ranch between September and December, you used LSD and no speed; is that
correct?
A Used what?
Q You didn't use any speed between September and December of 1968?
A That is correct.
Q When you got back in this period you are talking about, February or
March of 1969, was speed available at the ranch?
A It started being available in a little tablet, Charlie used to give it
to us all the time, all the guys and some of the girls too, to be able to
stay up and work on the dune buggies.
Q Do you remember what the tablets looked like?
A It was a round tablet with a cross in it and then we run out of those
and then he had a baggie, a white powder that was methedrine.
Q How would you use methedrine?
A Sniff it.
Q Who kept that supply? That is methedrine.
A The girls would keep all of the supplies.
Q Did you ever have any of your own?
A I knew where the speed was but I didn't take any unless Charlie or the
girls would bring it to me to take to work on the dune buggies.
Q Is that what you were doing primarily during this period of time?
Working on dune buggies?
A Yes, working on dune buggies. Eventually I got so high and out of
control on speed that I didn't work on any dune buggies any more that much.
Click here for Part 2
