Charles Manson 1981 Interview on
"Tomorrow with Tom Snyder"
Great thanks to Aaron Bredlau for his many hours of
transcribing!
Aaron also transcribed the Geraldo interview.
Tom: Tell me about life here in prison, do you read newspapers? Do you listen
to the radio? Do you watch television? Do you communicate with people on the
outside? What goes on for Charles Manson in this prison?
Manson: Well, I can feel the grass growin’ out there on the lawn and
there’s a few trees that’s got some leaves on that I can feel. And I’ve been in
jail all my life so I’m actually right here at home, uh how long have I been in
jail? 34 years? 34 years so um..
Tom: Out of 47 you’ve been here 34.
Manson: I’ve been in jail, uh prison, uh a long time. All my life. I was
raised up in here, so I understand jail so I understand myself so I can deal
with that. I sit in my cell and do my number like a convict does his number.
Tom : You like jail don’t you?
Manson: I uh, don’t dislike or like.
Tom: Let’s go back to 1967, the time you were winding up serving a term of a
number of years, ten years, and written accounts indicate that you told the
authorities "Don’t let me out, I can’t cope with the outside world." Do you have
a recollection of that? And do you…
Manson: You’re making a desperate plea out of something, man. There’s no
desperate plea out of it. I said I can’t handle the maniacs outside, let me back
in.
Tom: I didn’t use the word desperate, that’s your word Charles.
Manson: Yeah, well, your inflection and your voice tones were, uh,
implications there.
Tom: Well, uh, You use the word maniacs on the outside. How are you different
from the maniacs on the outside, and why do you call them maniacs? Because you
know something? They think you’re one.
Manson: Yeah, it would reflect. If you hold a negative up to the light, you
don’t see the light you just see the negative. So I’m a reflection of your
negative, there’s no doubt about that and I can handle that also. I been
handling ain‘t I?.
Tom: I don’t know have you?
Manson: Well, I’ve been up and down in these damn hallways, in and out of
these nut wards for the last ten years. You think you can follow that act?
Tom: Don’t want to follow that act, I don’t want to get in, why do you want
to get into that?
Manson: What crowd you playing for?
Tom: Huh?
Manson: I’m playing for my life. (chuckles) You’re working for money.
Tom: What does that mean, you’re playing for your life?
Manson: I’m working for my life mister. I’m not playing for money, I’m
playing for keeps.
Tom: What do you mean you’re working for your life?
Manson: I’m playing for real.
Tom: What does that mean, you’re playing for real. How are you playing for
your life?
Manson: Well That’s something you can’t buy.
Tom: When you say you’re playing for your life am I to assume to you think
that someday you’re going to get out of here?
Manson: (chuckles) Get out of here? Hmmm…get out of here? Where would I go
now see.
Tom: What would you do if you got out of here?
Manson: If I got out of here…
Tom: What if they said, they said to you tomorrow morning “Charles, hey
listen, you’re free” You could go where ever you wanna go, do whatever you wanna
do. What would you do?
Manson: I’d probably go out front in the grass and sit down.
Tom: For how long?
Manson: For, uh, right now. How long? I wouldn’t, I could put a track record
on it or I could, um, put a computer on it.
Tom: Come on down, no no come on down. Get off computers and get off tracks.
If you got out of here, there are a lot of people who think you’d go start
killing people again.
Manson: Again? (chuckles) Well you guys are misinformed. I haven’t killed
anyone.
Tom: What about, uh, what about Shea?
(Note from CharlieManson.com: According to Bruce
Davis' 1993 parole hearing statement, Shea was murdered by Charles Manson,
Charles Watson, Steve Grogan, Bruce Davis, Bill Vance and Larry Bailey.)
Manson: What about him?
Tom: Well, what about him?
Manson: He got killed.
Tom: Well, the word is you killed him.
Manson: Who?
Tom: Word is you stabbed him.
Manson: Oh, Word.
Tom: What does it feel to kill someone Charles?
Manson: Word…word is that you’re an old woman. Word is you have turkey in
sky. Word is…I don’t know what word is. Someone else tell you that, I didn’t
tell you that.
Tom: Did you kill Shea?
Manson: Hell no.
Tom: Did you cut, uh, Hinman’s ear off?
Manson: Hell .…yes. Yeah.
Tom : Why‘d you, How’d that feel when you cut his ear off?
Manson: Uh, I felt bad about it. .
Tom: The truth's fun now, isn’t the truth fun now when you... ok ok ok, you
cut his ear off what did it feel like..
Manson: Yeah Yeah sure, sure. Is the truth fun? (chuckles) My Goodness.
Tom: What did it feel like when you cut his ear off?
Manson: Huh?
Tom: Tell me about it, come on.
Manson: What did it feel like?
Tom: Yeah
Manson: Well I had done what he said for about 20 years. I done everything he
told me to do. And I got to thinking now, why don’t this guy do something I tell
him to do? And he said uh, “no“. And I said “well how comes I’m always doing
what you tell me to do but then you never do what I say to?” And he said ‘Well
blah blah blah” So I said “now you do what I say“. And he said “no.” I said “you
do exactly what I say!” And he said “no.” “I’m telling you! I’m not asking you!
I’m telling you! You do exactly what I say!” He said ‘Wow, where’d you get that
?” I said “I got it from my father in prison. He gave it to me. I had a little
charm bracelet I used to carry it on when I was about that big.”
Tom: Mmmhmmm. Skip that for a second.
Manson: Yeah
Tom: Why was it so important for him to do what you say? Why do you like
having people to do what you want them to do?
Manson: Because….
Tom: Why do you like to control them Charles?
Manson: Because. Wait a minute, no, no I was asked. The dude asked he says
“are you my brother” I said “yeah I’m your brother”, he said “how much are you
my brother?” I said “completely”. See if I’m gonna explain it to you, it’s not
gonna be that easy. So you’re gonna have to bare with me. So Bobby said, he was
a young dude, he said “I’m your brother” so I said “ok”
Tom: Bobby?
Manson: I’m your brother. Beausoleil, Beausoleil. I just got out of prison.
Tom: Wait wait, wait, wait, wait
Manson :Yeah
Tom: Let me interrupt you for a second.
Manson: Yeah, well then we’re gone with that thought.
Tom: No, no, no, no no because you’re getting on to something…
Manson: Then we’ll go onto another one and you’ll make me look crazy.
Tom: No, no, no. You can make yourself look crazy, Charles, I can’t make you
look crazy and please believe me.
Manson: Alright, I’ll believe you….
Tom: Let me...
Manson: and I’ll put it in my left hand pocket for later.
Tom: Let me, let me take you back to you wanting this man Hinman...
Manson: I cut the dude’s ear off because he was fucking over Bobby. And Bobby
was a youngster and really didn’t know what the hell he was doing, and he was a
kid and he never had no man show him nothing, see, so I was telling the boy, I
said, uh, uh , the guy says “You got my money?”, I said “go over there and get
your money or leave him alone.”
Tom: You’re taking me to another story.
Manson: No I’m trying to tell you the same thing. And we’ll be here for a
thousand years unless you let me finish.
Tom: No, no, no, no we won’t be here that long at all if you just speak to
this one point.
Manson: Ok, I made the point. Why I cut the dude's ear off, man, that’s the
point.
Tom: I, I didn’t ask you that, I said why was it important to you to make
Hinman do what you wanted him to do. If one follows your story…
Manson: Because the dude had a gun.
Tom: Ok, and if one follows your story
Manson: Yeah
Tom: through the times at the ranch
Manson: Yeah
Tom: in southern California, it was important to Charles Manson to be a
leader,
Manson: No
Tom: to have people follow him.
Manson: Come on district attorney! See you’re full of brainwarsh. That’s the
district attorney. I’m nobody’s fucking leader and I’m nobody’s follower. I got
a parole officer. I got a sleeping bag and a guitar and I’m standing at old
blind man’s ranch and that’s about the extent of it. All this occult and that
hocus pocus stuff that you guys are playing, I don’t nothing about all that.
Tom: You know nothing about something called Helter Skelter? You know nothing
about it?
Manson: Yeah I know about Helter Skelter! It was a song that some people
sang!
Tom: And that’s all it was?
Manson: and some other kids picked it up in their minds. And they said “What
do you think Helter Skelter is” and I say “Well I get out of the penitentiary in
the 50’s and everybody’s going (claps) “dun….dun….dun” (claps) and they’re
walking like that. I get locked back up, and I get out of the penitentiary in 65
and it’s going (claps faster) “dun..dun..dun..dun” And locked up again I come
out in 69 and it’s going (claps very fast) “dundundundundundundun” and I was
thinking “Wow man, wow far out”
Tom: Wow what? Wow what? Come on keep going, Charles, keep going.
Manson: I was a beatnik, I was a beatnik in the 50’s before the hippies came
along. You know, and I cut a rut down through Acapulco, and I smoked Acapulco
before you knew what it was, and I lived in the tombs and I was in the Cook
County jail in Chicago when you were playing cricket in, uh, high school. See,
like you live in another world. I live in street peoples world.
Tom: Manson had a plot, “Helter Skelter.”
Manson: Yeah…
Tom: Manson had uh a little scheme called creepy crawlers. He’d send people
in to move furniture around. Is that all a figment of someone’s imagination so
far or is there any truth to that? Tell me Charles, I don’t know.
Manson: It’s a fairy tale. It’s worse than a fairy tale.
Tom: It’s a fairy tale?
Manson: It’s, uh, it’s, it’s a comedy. It’s a comedy tragedy, uh, opera that
(chuckles) was played in the, uh, early morning.
Tom: Come on Charles off..
Manson: It was sickening. You know?
Tom: Get off the space shuttle.
Manson: Well that’s what the D.A. gave you as reality.
Tom: Ok.
Manson: He stood in the courtroom and said “this man did this and this man
did that“, and you all believed him. He said “this man did that” and I said
“Your honor may I speak?” and he said “No you can’t speak” and I said “your
honor I got a voice, let me talk” then he said “No sit down and shut up” and
then he handcuffed me and took me to the back and whipped my (inaudible) what
are you gonna do? I come out and sit down, I ain’t gonna get whipped again.
Tom: Didn’t you, uh, stand up in that courtroom
Manson: Sure
Tom: and by the way, by the way , let me just go back…
Manson: and I felt the reproductions of it in the back of it.
Tom: Ok ok, but you say the whole thing is a fairy tail. You say the whole
thing is make-believe.
Manson: Yeah, that’s his Helter Skelter, it wasn’t mine.
Tom: Uh huh, uh huh. The body of Sharon Tate is make believe isn‘t it?
Manson: Uh that’s make believe..
Tom: Make believe….
Manson: That’s make believe to the people that went in there and did what
they did.
Tom: And who were those people? You know…
Manson: Yeah
Tom: You know, but you know who those people were.
Manson: Sure I know who they were.
Tom: They were with you at the Spahn’s Ranch. They were part of this thing
Manson: Yeah
Tom: if not the Manson Family or the Manson Cult, the Manson Ranch, call it
what you will.
Manson: So then? What?
Tom: And Tex Watson testified in a court of law that you told him “go to the
house that Terry Melcher used to live in and kill those people in the most
gruesome way.” A man that was once your associate said that of you and now you
sit here and say that’s not true, that’s all make believe?
Manson: You’ve got a stone wall there, won’t you take it down a little bit.
Look here, I’ll explain something to you.. Um, Tex took the witness stand, and
this is record, and he said “I don’t know whether I’m Charlie Manson or my
mother” Tex didn’t have his own mind one way or the other . He was balanced back
and forth because I had already took his mind in another game down the road that
I was playing with some Hell’s Angels that you don’t know nothing about and you
probably never will know nothing about it. Because you would have to know those
people to get in that thought, see. But there’s different colors on different
peoples backs doing different things. It’s a different world. I love the world I
live in too just like Reagan loves the world he lives in.
Tom: You love the world you live in?
Manson: (chuckles) Most a surely. It’s me.
Tom: You love all the pain that you’ve caused people?
Manson: OH!
Tom: All the anguish that you’ve …..
Manson: Oh! I don’t know pain! I don’t know pain! I have no depth of pain! I
have no depth of suffering! I don’t know ridicule! I don’t know all the bad
things! I haven’t been punished by you all my life since I was 10 years old!
I’ve been in every reform school you’ve got across the country. I used to have
to lay down and get my ass whipped till I couldn’t walk. Tell me about some
pain. Yeah.
Tom: And that’s our fault, it’s all these peoples fault?
Manson: No, no one fault, make strong, good pain, understand pain. Not bad.
Pain’s not bad, it’s good. It teaches you things. It teaches you things. Like
when you put your hand in the fire, OW! You know not to do that again. Yeah I
understand that.
Tom: But how come you didn’t learn
Manson: That’s the reason come I never stick my hand in fire.
Tom: But, excuse me! You’ve been putting your hand in the fire sense you were
a little boy.
Manson: I have?
Tom: By, you just told me a couple minutes ago
Manson : I did?
Tom: that out of 47 years you’ve spent 34 of them behind bars, now if isn’t
keep putting your hand in the fire, I don’t know what is.
Manson: Yeah, yeah, what year was that?
Tom: It’s uh, uh, the year’s not important.
Manson : Oh.
Tom: What’s important is you just say you learn by pain not to experience it
again to put your hand in the fire. Why have you been in and out of prisons for
the last 34 out your 47 years. Do you call that normal behavior Charles? Is that
something you’re proud of?
Manson: No, no, no. I never thought I was normal, never tried to be normal.
Normal runs in that little rut down there. I don’t know nothing about being
normal. I‘ve been in jail all my life, man. I lived on the handball court. This
guy raised me up. All the men in the joint raised me up, told me what to do,
what was right and wrong, told me where to sit down , where to stand up, I just
did whatever I was told. You know, and I got to the end of it and I just turned
around and said "Wow, far out."
Tom: Alright, now that’s....
Manson: Then I went outside and all these little kids got a hold of me and
said “We want to stop the Vietnam War and we want to do this.” What? there was
a war,? I don’t know what’s happening. I just got out of prison. I never had any
vocational, did you ever see me go to any vocational training, rehabilitation? I
never played no rehabilitation. I sweep the floor in the kitchen then go play
handball. I’m still 10 years old in your world. Your world I’m still a kid, I’m
not gonna grow up, I’m not gonna go to college.
Tom: How old are you in your world?
Manson: Um, Forever. Since breakfast... I can’t remember.
Tom: I don’t know what that means, come on off the space shuttle Charles.
Manson: Yes…off the space shuttle.
Tom: How old are you in your world.
Manson: How old am I? I’m as old as my mother told me (chuckles). How’s
that?
Tom: Your mother? Tell me about your mother, what did your mother tell you?
Manson: My mother told me that when she worked on death row and they took
that dude into hanging and his head popped off and went down them 13 stairs and
rolled over by her, it scared the shit out of her. (chuckles) you know, and I
said “Wow, that sure is a far out trip Moms”. So then when I got up on Death Row
in cell 13 for 9 counts of murder 1969, and I looked at, at her fears of that
guy’s head popping off of that hanging noose, and I said to myself “My goodness,
what the hell am I doing here, I didn’t want to come here.” I didn’t break the
law. The judge knew that. But the people didn’t want to hear it. The Judge knew
it. He washed his hands. He said “I know it but what can I do? The people want
this.”
Tom: The judge never said that.
Manson: Yeah
Tom: The judge never said that.
Manson: that’s what Older said.
Tom: No, the judge never said that.
Manson: He got off and shook their hands, didn’t he?
Tom: The judge did not say he washed his hands
Manson: He’s a Flying Tiger man, from Madam Shanghai’s Shack. I just wrote
him a letter today.
(Note from CharlieManson.Com: Judge Older flew a
fighter in World War II. His group was called "The Flying Tigers.")
Tom: The judge did not say you were innocent Charles.
Manson: Innocent?
Tom: Let’s go back to your mother, what..
Manson: Innocent?
Tom: What is…
Manson: Wait a minute, wait a minute, let’s get back to that word innocent.
Are you so white and pure?
Tom: The judge didn’t say you were innocent.
Manson: Are you innocent?
Tom: Innocent of what?
Manson: Oh. That’s what I’m saying.
Tom: None of us are innocent.
Manson: Yeah, just because you’re convicted in a court room doesn’t mean
you’re guilty of something.
Tom: What does mean you’re guilty.
Manson: When you know you’re guilty.
Tom: And how do you feel about yourself, tell me about…
Manson: I feel, I feel pretty good.
Tom: (sighs) Let me take you back to your mom.
Manson: Take me back to old river..
Tom: What else did see talk to you about besides the fellow who’s head popped
off?
Manson: The head popped off, yeah. She was living in the Blue Moon Café and
she hit a dude in the head with one of them bottles of uh, Jim Beam Whiskey. She
tried to hustle a few dollars on the corner but there wasn’t no money, so when
she jammed this whiskey bottle upside that clown's head, he went down and she
took his bread and come up and got me and we left and went to Indiana.
Tom: When you were a boy, did you love your mother?
Manson: Uh, I didn’t know what that was.
Tom: Did you respect your mother? How did you feel about , how do you feel
about your mom right now? If your mother, I don’t know if she is alive Charles
or not.
(Note from CharlieManson.com: Manson's mother had
passed away several years before this interview)
Manson: Yeah you don’t huh?
Tom: Do you?
Manson: Hmmm. Let’s see. Alive now…yeah, yeah, maybe..
Tom: I mean, if she could be watching this right now..
Manson: She could watching this right now..
Tom: What would you say to her Charles?
Manson: Oh well, what would I say to her…
Tom: What would you say?
Manson: I’d say, “you sure did go through a lot of changes to get me as far
as you did. And you did a damn good job with the help of my grandma.” My grandma
was a mountain girl (chuckles) from Kentucky up in the mountains. And uh she
never did drink or smoke or cuss or lie. She used to cook for the Salvation Army
and she was a human being, a good one. I’d go to Church down there and sweep the
floor for her.
Tom: Well how were you in school? I’ve heard that you weren’t too good, but
maybe I’ve heard wrong.
Manson: Depends on which school. I did very well in reform school.
Tom: (chuckles) yeah…
Manson: I did good in uh, in uh, every place that I was ever told to go good
in. As much as I was allowed to do, you know. Lot of times good for some may not
be the same for others. Sometimes it kind a bumps heads but when it does um, I
just chew on my pipe and think about it and do the best I can.
Tom: Mmmmhmmm... but..
Manson: You dealt , you dealt the hand down there in LA. You and that press,
you and that uh, LA Times. You dealt the hand. You put me on "Life Magazine" and
had me convicted before I walked into the courtroom. You had what people wanted
to buy. When they wanted to buy it they didn’t give a damn if they had to
convict the District Attorney. They’d convicted the whole building to get that
dollar bill going there.. They had big bucks going there. They made twenty seven
million, thousand, hundred, billion and I’m bumming fifteen dollars from a friend
here..
Tom: Here's another newspaper account that you can now speak to since you
haven't done it before. That on the night following the, uh, killings of the
house on Cielo Drive in Los Angeles, you accompanied four people to a home occupied
by Mr. & Mrs. Leo LaBianca.
(Note from CharlieManson.com: The group consisted
of Manson, Watson, Krenwinkel, Van Houten, Grogan, Atkins and Kasabian.)
Manson : Yeah
Tom: That you went inside that house
Manson : mmmhmmm
Tom: And you tied them up
Manson : mmmmhmmmm
Tom: And assured them that they were not going to be hurt
Manson : mmmmhmmm
Tom: That you went back outside
Manson : mmmmhmmm
Tom : And sent Kasabian and Krenwinkel and Watson and Atkins inside the house
to kill them.
(Note from CharlieManson.com: Watson, Krenwinkel
and Van Houten were sent in. Not Kasabian or Atkins.)
Manson : mmmmhmmm
Tom : True or False?
Manson : mmmmhmmm (long pause)
Tom : Cause you know something Charles, that's what you were convicted of
among other things.
Manson : Alright.
Tom: Is it true or false?
Manson: Do you deserve and in theory do you....
Tom: No no no. It's, it's a yes or no.
Manson: No, no, no, no, nothing’s played…
Tom: But it's so simple. Try it, try it, try it.
Manson :No, nothing‘s yes or no. No. You, you go, go, go through your
little boxes and things. You know, look, look here, uh, first you have to see
where I’m coming from.
Tom: Not on that question, there's no coming from anywhere on that question
Charles. (long pause) Did you do that?
Manson : (very long silence)
Tom : Chair's getting hot huh? (long silence) Get mad, get angry, come over
here and hit me if you like, but why don't you answer the question?
Manson : Hit you?
Tom: If you'd like
Manson : Nah.
Tom : But answer the question
Manson : I don’t want to hit you. I, uh, got out of prison and I went up
in the streams and I saw a big fat dead rat laying in the water.
Tom : I'm gonna ask the question again Charles
Manson : Uh-huh
Tom : I'm gonna ask the same question again
Manson : (long pause) Same question again. (pause) Did I break the law? Is
that your question?
Tom : No, the question was that on the night following the murders or the
killings or whatever else you want to call it at the Melcher home
Manson : Mmmmhmmm
Tom: On Cielo Drive in Los Angeles, newspaper accounts claim that you, Krenwinkel, Atkins, Kasabian and Watson went to the home of Mr. & Mrs. LaBianca
in Los Angeles, that you went inside the house, tied them up, assured them that
they would not be hurt, then went back outside and sent the other four in.
(Note from CharlieManson.com: As mentioned
previously, the list of participants is incorrect.)
Manson : Who told you that?
Tom : Newspaper accounts...I do..newspaper accounts and this is one of the
things that for which you were convicted of in a courtroom in Los Angeles. Now
here's your chance before the whole world to tell it straight once and for all.
Did you do that?
Manson : Did I kill anyone?
Tom : No, did you go in and tie up the LaBiancas that night? Very simple
question.
Manson : That night..
Tom : August 10th 1969
Manson : That night, August the 10th, 1969
Tom: Did you? Why duck it, why dodge it? why not answer yes or no once and
for all put it behind you?
Manson : (very long pause) mmmhmmm (long pause) Did I kill anyone?
Tom: Did you tie up the LaBiancas? (long pause) Atkins testified you did.
Manson : (long pause) That‘s what Susie said?
Tom : That's what she said
Manson : Yeah?
Tom : And you remember it. You were in the courtroom when she said it.
Manson : (chuckles) She’s written three books, and each time she’s said
something different.
(Note from CharlieManson.com: He is likely
referring to "The Killing of Sharon Tate" and "Child of Satan, Child of God.")
Tom : Mmmhmmm
Manson : Each time.
Tom : Did you time them up?
Manson : Did I?
Tom : Mmmhmm
Manson : (long silence) Well, we came down from Aberdeen, and uh
Tom : Let's stay in Los Angeles August 10th, 1969
Manson : And there was a hole-in-the-wall gang there.
Tom : (long pause) Why don't you want to talk about it Charles? Why don’t you
want…
Manson : Because I’m an outlaw and I go so far and then that’s all you
know.
Tom: And if you did..
Manson: That’s like asking Jessie James "are you going to shoot somebody?"
Tom: And if, and if, and if, and if as others have written and others have
testified and as the media has reported you did that ,and you sent your friends
back in to do the deed, aren’t you a coward?
Manson: Oh my friends back in to do the terrible deed .
Tom: Doesn’t that make you..
Manson: The wicked deed. Um, did we have the castle there with the vampires
and the Frankenstein, and the bugs and lizards dying in the desert? Did we have
the water that is dying and the whales that are being killed and the seals…
Tom: Here we go again, lay it off on someone else.
Manson: Well
Tom: Let’s point to all the other injustices
Manson: Oh I’m in the world all by myself?
Tom: Yeah, on this one you are. Yeah.
Manson: Yeah, hmmm, it’s ok, if that’s the way you see it for you.
Tom: Well, whether you like it or not Charles, all those things that happened
that August in Los Angeles are identified as the Manson Killings.
Manson: Yeah, that’s what your history book will tell you.
Tom: So you can sit here and talk about the whales and Hiroshima and you can
sit and talk about the environment and the Great Lakes and that’s all fine, but
what it really comes down to in this particular instance is that this one is
your ballgame.
Manson: Well if I could get some help from the doctor then I could get my
mind straightened out a little bit and I come back and play like a human.
Tom: Well, you’ve never talked about this before, but I’m gonna try it one
more time.
Manson: Yeah. Now, now, now
Tom: You can see
Manson: You got a pistol on you?
Tom: No sir. They wouldn’t let me in here if I had a pistol, you know that as
well as I do, so why even ask the question? Okay?
Manson: Well, I just thought you might not like what I have done and want to
do something about it.
Tom: I don’t much care for what you’ve done.
Manson: Yeah.
Tom: A lot of people don’t. How do you feel about that?
Manson: Well
Tom: They think you are a monster Charles.
Manson: Yeah, they think you are a monster because you reflect this news
media on me. Cult leader. I never had long hair before I got busted. I never had
a beard before I got busted. I went to shave and the guy’s “No, you can’t
shave”, I said “I need a razor to shave”, he said “No you can’t shave” I said
“Let me get a hair cut” he said “no we don’t want you to change your
appearance.” So when you , first put that camera on me you got long hair and a
beard. First time in my life I’ve got long hair and a beard.
Tom: You want, you want a shave and get a hair cut? I’ll shut them off and
you’ll get a shave and a hair cut.
Manson: Am I telling him right? I’m not of this generation.
Tom: You want a shave and a hair cut right now? I’ll shut them down right now
if you want a shave and a hair cut.
Manson: Yeah, yeah I was trying to explain to you man, that a lot of what
they pushed of on me is not me. They said I had a great family and I was the
followers and leader. There was no followers and leaders, bunch of kids out at
the ranch playing, to me.
Tom: Playing at what?
Manson: Playing at living.
Tom: The accounts say that you, that you gave them dope. I’m just saying what
the accounts say.
Manson: Oh yeah.
Tom: I’m not saying I know it to be so. So here’s your chance to say that it
wasn’t true.
Manson: Yeah, yeah
Tom: That there was a lot of hanky panky. That you turned the girls on with
dope and sex out there. That’s..
Manson: That’s what they said.
Tom: Alright that’s what they said, well are they wrong?
Manson: Oh! Well! I went down to Haight-Ashbury and a little kid 10 years old
came up and said “You want an acid pill?” I said “what’s that?” he said “This is
good. Make colors go” I said “No, I’ve heard of them things. I don’t want none of
that.” And then, then another little kid was rolling a joint, and they were
sitting there smoking a joint and asked me if I wanted one.
Tom: What’d you say?
Manson: I said “I used to smoke this stuff in the 60’s but it never, or the
50’s but it really, really wasn’t, you know, it was funny but it’s not…"
Tom: How much dope did you do in your lifetime? Were you a heavy user of
dope?
Manson: No. I smoked a little grass and I’ve taken some acid, mescaline, uh,
psilocybin, peyote, mushroom. But actually take uh dope, no. Nothing. I’d never
take anything that I feel would actually hurt me.
Tom: Do you feel that those things that you just mentioned hurt you at all
Charles?
Manson: Uh, physically or spiritually?
Tom: Mentally.
Manson: And then on what level? On the level of society the way you view the
norm?
Tom: No, no, no, no, no, no. Stop the hogwash. Do you feel that the drugs
that you did use in your earlier life time confused you, altered your mind, uh
juggled, scrambled, made you see things differently, uh stay on that level if
you can.
Manson: Maybe I find a uh, spirit of uh, cave man-think-through-brain.
Tom: Let me try it again
Manson: (laughs)
Tom: Do you think the drugs you used hurt you?
Manson: Nah. Drugs hurt me? No I don’t think the drugs have hurt me. If I
overdone it I think it would.
Tom: You don’t want to be anybody’s leader do you?
Manson: No.
Tom: Never did want to be anybody‘s leader?
Manson: No. Don‘t like attention.
Tom: Mmmmhmmmm. Then why do you
Manson: Most insecure people need attention. I don’t
Tom: I was just going to say then, if you don’t want attention, why do you
keep, why all your life have you kept waving your arms saying “Hey look at me”?
Manson: That’s what I’ve been doing all my life?
Tom: Well I have to say a young man..
Manson: Let me see if I’ve got that documented.
Tom: who by the time he’s 20 years old has been in and out of jails and
reform schools for a variety of offenses that include wife beating... homo...
Manson: (chuckles) Wife beating?! Now that bullshit, I’ve never whipped my
old lady.
(Note from CharlieManson.com: Manson was married
to Rosalie Willis in the 1950's and had one son.)
Tom: Didn’t you?
Manson: No, I punched my mother out once.
Tom: Oh you did, alright, we’ll call it mother beating. Uh, forging checks
Manson: But she was wrong. She lied to me and beat me for my money, and she,
she didn’t do right. You know what I mean?
Tom: Forging checks, uh car theft, I mean these are ways of waving your arms
and saying “Look at me, give me some attention”
Manson: Yeah
Tom: And you say you don’t want attention. Now Charles, that’s a
contradiction.
Manson: Yeah.
Tom: That doesn’t make any sense.
Manson: Well over a period of about 20 years, I would imagine you’d would
want to change something. I’m not very wise to many things. But I am wise to one
thing, you know.
Tom: What’s that?
Manson: Well I’m not gonna to tell you.
Tom: Ok. You punch your mother, did you hate your mother?
Manson: Nah, I loved my mother, she’s a good girl.
Tom: What about your wife, you were married once weren‘t you?
Manson: Yeah.
Tom: How’d that go? Why’d you wanna get married? That’s kinda conventional,
that’s kind of normal. that’s kinda of in the rut as you say to get married
isn’t it?
Manson: (laughs)I got married, cause I wanted to get in that (inaudible)
That’s why I got married.
Tom: oh yeah? Married for sex was the reason you got married?
Manson: Yeah, I did know what was happening. I knew something was happening
but no one would tell me so I had to find out, you know, I didn’t have books
like you guys, you know, "Playboys" and stuff in them days. I had to find out for
myself.
Tom: Mmmmhmmm. Why do you think that all us guys are playboys? That we can’t
Manson: AH MAN! I didn’t say you were playboys, I was talking about "Playboy"
magazine-type thought man!
Tom: Ok, ok, ok, ok, ok, ok. You had a son by that marriage didn’t you?
Manson: Uh Yeah, I got a kid somewhere.
Tom: Do you think about him?
Manson: Uh, not, about as much as my father did me.
Tom: So two wrongs make a right, Charles?
Manson: No I didn’t say there’s anything wrong with the way my dad’s been
taking care of me. He lets me live, (laughs) I’m alive, you know.
Tom: I remember you saying, or being quoted…
Manson: Thank you.
Tom: In a courtroom in Los Angeles as saying “The children who came at you
with knives are your children.”
Manson: Yeah, I didn’t raise 'em. You raised 'em.
Tom: “You are the ones that kicked them out. You are responsible for what
they’ve done.”
Manson: That’s right, just as much as I am.
Tom: Mmmhmmm, so you , in my mind, were criticizing society for kicking their
children out.
Manson: Sure.
Tom: And yet I’ve just seen you sit here and say “Yeah, I’ve got a kid
somewhere.”
Manson: Yeah
Tom: How can you criticize other people for kicking their kids out and you
did the same thing?
Manson: Difference, difference, difference on many levels. Difference. See my
old lady left me and run off with a truck driver. She said “let’s steal a car
and go to California.” and I said “Man, I ain’t gonna steal no car and go off to
California and go back to jail.” She said “We won’t get caught”. Well we didn’t
get caught, just I got caught. She didn’t get caught. So then she had a kid and
then some truck driver came along, and I was a green kid and didn’t know what I
was doin', you know. So she says “ You know, I got a ride, you know, see you
later.” So she took off and got married to someone else, you know. She’s a good
girl.
Tom: And besides the son from your marriage, you’ve got, what, four other children
somewhere?
(Note from CharlieManson.com: The number of
children is likely incorrect.)
Manson: Oh I don’t, uh, uh, think I’ve been uh, uh, uh, responsible for as
much as you people want to lay on me.
Tom: Well how many children do you have Charles?
Manson: How many children do I have? Uh, I don’t know, I’ve got lots of
children, man. Uh, in fact sometimes I even think that you’re a child.
Tom: But you just said you don’t have any children, you don’t have any family
in the context of the Ranch. I’m talking about children that (sighs) are your,
uh, natural children.
Manson: How many are my natural ego?
Tom: No, children.
Manson: Oh children? I would divide one child from the other?
Tom: Alright, somewhere out there, somewhere there’s at least one son that we
know of that is your child, who’s probably about 25 or 26 years old right now.
Manson: Is that right?
Tom: Yeah. Look into that camera. What do you say to that kid? What do you
say to your son out there, who’s watching his old man on television. Maybe the
first time he’s ever seen his old man with his face all carved up and his eyes
glowering. You talk to that kid, what are you going say to him?
Manson: You gotta catch it on your own boy. The train’s hard. The road’s
ruff.
Tom: And that’s it?
Manson: That’s all I knew. That’s all anyone ever told me.
Tom: Alright. (sighs)
Manson: And you wanna hear something?
Tom: Yeah.
Manson: He’ll do it better than me. (chuckles)
Tom: Do what?
Manson: Whatever he does, (chuckles) he’ll do it a little better. Kids do,
don’t they?
(Note from CharlieManson.com: Manson and
Rosalie's son committed suicide in 1993.)
Tom: Sometimes.
Manson: Yeah, (chuckles) that’s what makes them such a gas. They always seem
to get through.
Tom: (sighs) There was a story of a celebrity hit list..
Manson: Was you ever a kid once?
Tom: Absolutely.
Manson: Yeah?
Tom: Still am in many ways.
Manson: Hmmmmm.
Tom: But not, not, not your way.
Manson: Oh my way? I don’t know what my way is, everybody keeps telling me I
got all these things. I read the other day where I had magical powers, and I
told everybody in the chapel, I said “ZAP-ZAP-ZAP-ZAP“. I said “where’s my
magical powers?” Well you can’t, you can’t believe what you read in the press. I
ain’t got no magical powers and mystical trips and all that kind of crap.
(pause) Yeah, it’s kind of silly. Yeah, you got witches and devils and uh. One
guy came up and said “I heard you said your Jesus” I said “Nah man, I ain’t said
nothing.” He said “I’m glad“ He said “I’m damn glad.” I said “Why?” He said “I
know you ain’t him.” I said “How do you know?” He said “Because I am.” (laughs)
I said “Ok”. But I mean, you know I’ve been in the nut ward for the last 10
years, so you can’t expect me to, uh, to rationally take thing stuff serious.
Tom: Don’t you think that you belong in the nut ward?
Manson: It’s alright. I can deal with that.
Tom: I’m mean don’t you belong there?
Manson: Belong, where, I belong where I am allowed to go, man like, uh, you
know, I belong there…
Tom: Let me nail down one of the real simple ones, listen how simple this is
Charles. There was a story in the media, back when the trial was going on that
Charles Manson had a celebrity hit list. I don’t know who was on it, maybe there
never was such a list. But was there a list of people, famous people that you
thought about harassing, bothering?
Manson: If I wanted to harass them I just wouldn’t watch their TV show.
Tom: Talk to me about your life in prison in terms of you being in isolation.
You are not on what is called the main line. You don’t, you’re not in with the
prison population here, how do you feel about that?
Manson: How do I feel about it? I don’t feel about it.
Tom: Would you rather not be in isolation?
Manson: Oh I’ve been trying to get on the main line, I’ve been trying to get
to the prison for the last 13 years.
Tom: Why?
Manson: Why? Walk around, play some handball, play a little guitar. Uh, do my
number, do my time like any convict does. Like I’ve always done. Like my mind
been set to do. Like my uh, past lives have been in jail, doing time in jail. In
fact when I got out I just got outside and sat down. I wasn’t going nowhere, I
gave up, see.
Tom: If you were on the mainline, wouldn’t you be exposed to some dangers?
Manson: Come on man,
Tom: What?
Manson: if you’re thinking exposure to danger, then that danger you’re
thinking is coming around you.
Tom: Well look what happened to James Earl Ray? Heard about didn’t you?
Manson: Uh, James Early Ray’s got his problems, I’ve got mine.
Tom: Have you heard? He got stuck.
Manson: Yeah.
Tom: 22 Times.
Manson: Some people died in India too.
Tom: Got stuck.
Manson: And some other people died in Hawaii.
Tom: You wouldn’t be scared…
Manson: People are dieing all over.
Tom: You wouldn’t be frightened or afraid then of the uh, of the uh, prison
population trying to make a hit on you.
Manson: Man, I’ve been staying alive in prison this long without no help.
Tom: What is "S Ward?"
Manson: It’s a nut ward.
Tom: What goes on there?
Manson: Uh, what ever goes on in there. You’d have to ask the people
responsible for that.
Tom: Well, do you they do things to you in there?
Manson: Do they do things to me?
Tom: Mmmhmmm
Manson: Uh, That depends.
Tom: Do they give you medication here?
Manson: Yeah, they give you medication here.
Tom: (long pause) You on medication now?
Manson: No. No. It took me about a few years to get off the medication. The
medication has toned me down quite a bit. (pause) A whole lot. (chuckles) That’s
the reason I like the desert, was I get out in the desert then I can let it out
and say if I see you within 50 miles then we’ll know something. Yeah I used to
love that desert, out in the woods and things. I didn’t know you could get out
in the woods for 30 years.
Tom: How do you feel about spending the rest of your life in prison?
Manson: Well, we’re our own prisons. We each our own wardens and we do our
own times. We get stuck in our own little trips and we kind a judge ourselves
the way we do. You know, I can’t judge uh, nobody else, best thing I can do is
try to judge myself and live with that. See, what other people do is not really
my affair, unless they approach me with it, and want me to do something about
it, uh, then I’ll uh take into consideration what has to be done. But other than
that I just uh, try to do my number, and do my time. Get out on the main line,
play some tennis, walk around, make the chow a little better, you know. And then
there’s the possibility the preacher can teach me something, because the
preacher, the reverend is, is quite a guy. And I’m finding they got two or three
doctors here that got a lot of sense. I mean as far as I’m concerned they got a
lot of sense in my world, you know. And I’ve tried to shake two or three of them, but
they, they’re pretty smart. And uh. then they got some uh, pretty good inmates
here, trying to get out and work their lives into a decent sort of way. Trying
to promote harmony. Pull ourselves together and be right and do right and have
the understanding of what it is in a congenial form for world peace. There’s a
lot of people working for world peace.
Tom: Let’s assume that one day you were paroled. Let’s just…
Manson: Parole?
Tom: Let’s just make believe. Do you ever think you will be?
Manson: Yeah, do I ever think I will be? Well I’ve never been paroled before.
I went up to the board and they never would, they said I was incorrigible. And
uh, not only was I incorrigible, I’d never grow up. And I kind a agreed with
them. I had a..
Tom: I mean let’s just make believe here for a second.
Manson: Make believe?
Tom: Let’s make believe, let’s make believe that you’re getting out tomorrow.
Manson: Tomorrow.
Tom: Okay?
Manson: Tomorrow creeps it’s petty pace. Yeah
Tom: Would you go after anybody Charles??
Manson: After anybody? Hell no.
Tom: Do you feel, do, let me try another way,
Manson: I’ll come after you, man.
Tom: Do you, do you feel, do you feel that you have any scores to settle with
anyone on the outside?
Manson: Hmm, let me think. Do I have any scores out there? Now we’re making
believe right?
Tom: Mmmhmmm
Manson: Well, I’ll tell you buddy.. (laughs) (long pause) Well, I don’t
rightly know. I’m stupid (chuckles) to the point to where I’m not really sure,
and if you’ll ask the question again, maybe the answer will come to you. What
was it again?
Tom: If you got out tomorrow do you have any scores to settle on the outside?
Manson: Scores? You mean people that have done me wrong?
Tom: Or that you feel that have done you wrong?
Manson: That feel that I’ve done them wrong?
Tom: No, feel that they’ve done you wrong.
Manson: Oh
Tom: That you feel that done you wrong?
Manson: Oh well most people do themselves wrong.
Tom: But would you want, would you want to go get anybody if you got out.
Manson: No.
Tom: No.
Manson: They push, see what they do, see they take all that bad and then they
push it off on each other. I told the dude, “You’re doing this to yourself man”.
You know, I’ve been sitting in there, in other words I’m the cell, right, and
they let me out, and I walk around and the guy says “If you don’t do this we’re
gonna lock you back up.” I said “ok, I don’t care anyway.” Already gave up that
thought. Prison’s in your mind, man, like you know.
Tom: Okay. Okay.
Manson: You sit in the cell, and they guy asks “You in prison?” I say “no,
I’m just here.” He says “what you doin’?” I say “I’m just sitting waiting for
these uh, people to get done doin’ what they’re doing so I can get out.”
Tom: Do you have a television set? Do you watch television?
Manson: Yeah, I used to watch it a little bit, but kinda it looks, I don’t
really like it that much.
Tom: Ok, What about newspapers. Do you get newspapers?
Manson: No I don’t bother with those. I know that they’re jiving there.
Tom: Ok, Radio? Listen to the radio?
Manson: I listen to the Hearts and Space Program. I like that. And the rest
of it is just like a bunch of (gibberish) There’s no uh..
Tom: What about your music?
Manson: I get some classical music on the 98 station that saying something‘..
Tom: Okay, but what about your own music? I remember reading
Manson: Well..
Tom: that you at one time you had a recording stint at a studio in Hollywood,
that you liked guitar, that you wrote music, or that you sang music. Do you
still do that?
Manson: Yeah, yeah I do that. Yeah I do that. But uh, the way I do it, ain’t
the same way you guys do it. And the way I do it scares you guys. So I didn’t
want to scare you guys out of the neighborhood right away. (chuckles) So I just
took a can and started banging on it, you know. But we used to have some cosmic
gatherings back in the mountains that would probably shake a Mormon Tabernacle
Quire’s eardrums.
Tom: You said, the kind of music you play scares people. Why shouldn’t people
be scared by you?
Manson: There’s only one person you should be a-scared of and that’s
yourself. Afraid of what, loosing your bank account? Afraid of your wife going
uh, away? You have all those things. I’m not afraid of loosing my watch or someone
taking my money or robbing me. I went down to Mexico in the 50’s down where the Yakees was, and they said “Man you don’t go down to where the Yakees are.
They‘re terrible” I said “Why?” he said “Well, they don’t like people like you.”
I says “Well they didn’t say anything.”
Tom: Yeah. I asked that question in the context of, would you believe it or
not, there’s a lot of people on the outside, that think about the possibility of
you coming out of here, and they’re genially scared of you.
Manson: Oh boy I might just, just make dust, everything terrible. One little
guy, terrible. Oooo. Boy, how insecure are we as human beings put all our fear
on one little guy? And afraid to let him out, he might break all the toys.
(laughs)
Tom: Why do you say little guy?
Manson: Because I’m not the guy you trying to make out of me. That’s not me.
That’s some guy in somebody’s imagination that want to make a couple hundred
million dollars for himself. He got rich. He had a good game going. He had a
better game going than I did. But he had a good mother to help him. She helped
him in a nice game, I was kind a over on the sidelines. See I had to get around
that game and look over the tracks.
Tom: Ok, Now, here we go again on mother for a second. You said he had a nice
mother to help him, does that mean you did not have a nice mother to help you?
Manson: Oh, well, I imagine I have got a whole lot of nice mothers that would
help me. If I I would help them you know. How much would you help yourself?
Tom: When I asked you why you got married you said for sex. Uh..
Manson: That’s when I was 20 years old.
Tom: Yeah, what kind (chuckles) This is funny, what kind of sex life is there
for Charles in this prison?
Manson: Well I (inaudible) get a little bit now and then.
Tom: Mmmhmmm
Manson: I try to hide it not to embarrass other people. But I’ve been doing
it ever since I was 10. (laughs) I get to thinking, here I am an old man sitting
in this cell, (laughs) that’s the damnest thing I ever seen, you know. It looks
like I grow up, but I really don’t know how yet. I’m learning. Preacher’s
teaching me how to grow up.
Tom: Do you miss women?
Manson: Certainly. My goodness, yeah, damn right, yeah. (laughs)
Tom: What do you think of women?
Manson: Oh I like them. They’re nice. If they’re put together well, and
everything and they’re soft and spongy, yeah, they‘re nice. As long as they keep
they’re mouth shut and do what they’re do what they’re supposed to do.
Tom: Why do you say that?
Manson: 'cause that’s what a woman’s supposed to do.
Tom: Keep her mouth shut and do what she’s supposed to do?
Manson: Sure.
Tom: Who taught you that?
Manson: Well, I don’t want her snitchin’ on me.
Tom: How do you feel about dieing?
Manson: Dieing is..
Tom: You know you were sentenced to the gas chamber and then they modified
the death penalty, were you happy when that was done?
Manson: Was I happy when what was done?
Tom: When you found out that you weren’t going to the gas chamber.
Manson: You talking about dieing now it gets me nervous.
Tom: Why?
Manson: Did you have any thoughts about something? Was you wanting to go
anywhere?
Tom: Were you happy when you found out you weren’t gonna go to the gas
chamber, Charles?
Manson: Uh, I knew I wasn’t gonna go to the gas chamber, cause I hadn’t done
anything wrong.
Tom: You scared to die?
Manson: (pause) Sometimes I feel I’m a-scared to live. Living is what scares
me. Dieing is easy. Getting up everyday and going through this again and again is
hard. See I’m carrying a heavier thought, see, the thought I’m carrying is very
heavy. Like I’m on a football team, and everybody’s, and, and I’m a little guy,
I don’t have no supp, I don’t have no home team. You got all the home, I
got one, one uh cheerleader (chuckles) or one uh, uh coach. See you got me in a
disadvantage because I’m on your ground see. So, and this is your street I
recon, you got the cameras and the money and the things. But you can believe me
that um, Bugliosi has you on a rib, and all them guys that sold you most of that
stuff, sold you a bunch of things that weren’t uh, weren’t real. Not to me. We
used to have games we would play on the movie set. We would take on different
people. I’d be Riff Raff Rackus, Steve would be John Jones, just a-come in from
Minneapolis and driving a truck. And we’d just take other people, and play act
other people. And then we lost track of who we were. (chuckles) And it went off
into other dimensions and levels of thought and understandings and
comprehensions that were beyond most people minds, functions, computers, data.
So, um, all I did was watch and learn everything I could from everybody I ever
met. Then when I got out of prison I just walked around. I didn’t tell nobody to
do nothing. I said do what you want to do. (inaudible) Don’t tell me what to do.
I don’t like people telling me what to do. I just come from place where they
told me what to do all my life, you know. I want to find out what to do for
myself, you know. Never did. Not yet. But I was gonna take a trade, one of these
days. Maybe learn to be a welder or something. (long pause) ‘Til I can get to
the front gate anyway.
Tom: They got you involved in this whole drama where people got killed. How
did you get involved in that drama?
Manson: Well I was borned illegitimately that put me on the other side of the
law. I’ve been an outlaw ever since I was borned. I went to reform school when I
was about 10. And I learned to box and cry, and I learned to do all the things
that you do in reform school. And then I went to , uh, I escaped there a bunch
of times and I went to prison. And I learned everything that you do in prison.
And I talked to all the guys and asked them everything they knew, and they told
me all the things they knew. And then I went to the end of it and then old man
would be ready to die and he’d say “Well son, un, sincerity is the best gimmick
remember that.” and I say “Alright, be sincere, that’ll win it?” He says “That’s
it.” Sincerity and honesty he said will do it, it’ll trick 'em every time.
(laughs) I said “Well, sincere and honesty, I’ve never tried that. I’ve tried
everything else but maybe I’ll try sincere and honesty.” So then I looked in a
book and it said “The wages of sin is death.” Now I figured well, I don’t want
to die, so maybe I have been sinful here. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I’ll take a
look at my life and say “well, I’m gonna change it and start all over.” You
know, and I know I go to God and say “Hey man, are you gonna forgive me?” And
he’s gonna say “What do you do? You gonna forgive you? What you come to me for?
Forgive yourself man, don’t be botherin’ me.” You know, and I think well he must
be a big mighty god, man. He just, you know, he ain’t got time, you gotta make
an appointment or something, you know. So I see the whole aspect of the whole
trip for children to play, you know, then I get stuck in the game of playing the
goat here, or the lamb, or the, the some other trip. I was a teddy bear, then I
was the goof ball, whatever, and uh, what is the real one, where is the real
one. I don’t know where the real one is. He’s in a nut ward somewhere.
Interview over
Tom: Now you’ve seen the real Charles Manson. Hardly the glowering, sinister
and assertive mastermind that was pictured of his life before and after the
Tate/LaBianca killings in Los Angeles. The real Charles Manson appears to be
confused and frightened. Confused if you recall his admission that we look at
ourselves to better understand him. Yet each time I pressed him on the details
of the murders, Manson couldn’t even look at himself, nor his relationships with
his mother, his wife and his son. And he’s frightened. During our conversation,
you recall Manson said “I’m living aren’t I? They let me live didn’t they?”
followed by that little nervous laugh. The man does not want to die. I think
he’s frightened by death and I think he is as scared of us as we are of him. I
get the feeling he’ll be quite content to spend the rest of his life playing
mind games in the jail house. And I also believe that Charles Manson knows
exactly what he’s done. A word about what you might think was my belligerence
with Manson. I lived in Los Angeles all during his trial. I still live there from
time to time. In a quiet neighborhood just across the canyon from where Sharon
Tate and the others were murdered. At work by day I broadcast the six o’clock news
in Los Angeles. The whole story of the trial. The shaved heads, the carved
foreheads, the harangues and threats in the court room. And by night I tried to
assure my young daughter, that yes even though the murder house was close by,
Charles Manson and company were under lock and key and there would be no creepy
crawlers in the night. So it was that Manson I was listening to, not the one
that sits alone in a far away prison, where baring a most perverse miracle, he
will spend the rest of his life. Thank you everybody for watching and goodnight.
